Original Posted By: del magsam
NOTHING needs to be "done" to the plans. You're building an old airplanefrom old plans......it's cool.I'm a first-time builder without a "mentor". I have used my wits, commonsense, skills learned from other hobbies and the "obsolete" plans have not beenan obstacle. They have been part of the journey and education (which is one ofthe stated goals of homebuilding). I now have a nice Piet and yes, some piles of parts that didn't quite fit. Boy,did I learn a lot, and I'm better for it. I submit that those who aren't willingto do some research and be prepared to wrestle with their own shortcomingsshould pick another project........or maybe find another outlet for their leisuretime and discretionary money instead of building an airplane. The Piet plans are fine! Do a little digging to find out their peculiarities andnuances and you will be rewarded with a sense of tradition and feel closer toyour plane and the group when it's finished. If you want everything tied upin a neat and perfect package, homebuilding ain't for you whether you are buildinga Piet or any other plane from plans.My vote is to revel in the tradition of the entire experience and leave the plansalone. If you have trouble deciphering some things, you're on the site to getALL your questions answered (and more, sometimes) right here. Just hang in there, It'll all come together and be a beautiful thing, you'll see.Larry________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 05:13:56 -0700 (PDT)
Pietenpol-List: Piet plans
> Pietenpol-List: Piet plans
Original Posted By: "DJ Vegh"
Ok so I was a annoyed To hear that ANOTHER Piet builder had to scrap his control tube because he brazed it according to the plans. Everyone says do your homework and avoid the pitfalls.They also say stick to the plans. Well I'll tell you what, I have read everything I can find on brazing and chomemoly and I have found nothing in writing that states that it can't or shouldn't be done. I even bought an aircraft welding book just for that reason. Not a word. I borrowed a 1000+ page welding text book, nothing.Tony Bingelis, nothing. Acceptable practices,guess what.I spoke with our Welding instructor who used to weld jet turbines all he said is why use a high strength steel with a weaker joint material(he did mumble something about the chrome). So what would be so wrong with a small notation in the plans. How much time is involved in ordering material and building a new control tube, time that could be put towards the next step in building. My fuselage is on it's gear and it's awesome, It has been a great and rewarding learning experience. I still feel that if 4130 is the accepted aircraft steel of today and it's not acceptable to braze it then the plans shouldn't show a braze or there should be a notation. And I would also really like to know how many Piets and other homebuilts have been flying for many years with brazed 4130 parts in them without any problems. The stuff brazes beautifully and the brazes I did before hearing about this on the list are as strong as any others that I've done on mild steel. So is brazing 4130 a REAL problem or is it someones theory that it shouldn't work. I'm not trying to be argumentive but when someone wrote toLarry Neal "I hope you're not brazing 4130" last week it really rang my bell. Because he missed some E-mails he might have done something potentially dangerous because he was following the plans. Respectfully Ed G.>From: "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: "Pietenpol-List Digest Server" >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet plans>Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 07:19:02 -0400>>>NOTHING needs to be "done" to the plans. You're building an old airplane>from old plans......it's cool.>>I'm a first-time builder without a "mentor". I have used my wits, common>sense, skills learned from other hobbies and the "obsolete" plans have no>t beenan obstacle. They have been part of the journey and education (whi>ch is oneof the stated goals of homebuilding).>> I now have a nice Piet and yes, some piles of parts that didn't quite fi>t.Boy, did I learn a lot, and I'm better for it. I submit that those who> aren'twilling to do some research and be prepared to wrestle with their> own shortcomingsshould pick another project........or maybe find anothe>r outlet fortheir leisure time and discretionary money instead of buildi>ng an airplane.>>The Piet plans are fine! Do a little digging to find out their peculiarit>iesand nuances and you will be rewarded with a sense of tradition and fe>el closerto your plane and the group when it's finished. If you want eve>rything tiedup in a neat and perfect package, homebuilding ain't for you> whether you arebuilding a Piet or any other plane from plans.>>My vote is to revel in the tradition of the entire experience and leave t>he plansalone. If you have trouble deciphering some things, you're on th>e site toget ALL your questions answered (and more, sometimes) right her>e.>>Just hang in there, It'll all come together and be a beautiful thing, you>'llsee.>>>Larry>>________________________________________________________________________________
Ok so I was a annoyed To hear that ANOTHER Piet builder had to scrap his control tube because he brazed it according to the plans. Everyone says do your homework and avoid the pitfalls.They also say stick to the plans. Well I'll tell you what, I have read everything I can find on brazing and chomemoly and I have found nothing in writing that states that it can't or shouldn't be done. I even bought an aircraft welding book just for that reason. Not a word. I borrowed a 1000+ page welding text book, nothing.Tony Bingelis, nothing. Acceptable practices,guess what.I spoke with our Welding instructor who used to weld jet turbines all he said is why use a high strength steel with a weaker joint material(he did mumble something about the chrome). So what would be so wrong with a small notation in the plans. How much time is involved in ordering material and building a new control tube, time that could be put towards the next step in building. My fuselage is on it's gear and it's awesome, It has been a great and rewarding learning experience. I still feel that if 4130 is the accepted aircraft steel of today and it's not acceptable to braze it then the plans shouldn't show a braze or there should be a notation. And I would also really like to know how many Piets and other homebuilts have been flying for many years with brazed 4130 parts in them without any problems. The stuff brazes beautifully and the brazes I did before hearing about this on the list are as strong as any others that I've done on mild steel. So is brazing 4130 a REAL problem or is it someones theory that it shouldn't work. I'm not trying to be argumentive but when someone wrote toLarry Neal "I hope you're not brazing 4130" last week it really rang my bell. Because he missed some E-mails he might have done something potentially dangerous because he was following the plans. Respectfully Ed G.>From: "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: "Pietenpol-List Digest Server" >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet plans>Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 07:19:02 -0400>>>NOTHING needs to be "done" to the plans. You're building an old airplane>from old plans......it's cool.>>I'm a first-time builder without a "mentor". I have used my wits, common>sense, skills learned from other hobbies and the "obsolete" plans have no>t beenan obstacle. They have been part of the journey and education (whi>ch is oneof the stated goals of homebuilding).>> I now have a nice Piet and yes, some piles of parts that didn't quite fi>t.Boy, did I learn a lot, and I'm better for it. I submit that those who> aren'twilling to do some research and be prepared to wrestle with their> own shortcomingsshould pick another project........or maybe find anothe>r outlet fortheir leisure time and discretionary money instead of buildi>ng an airplane.>>The Piet plans are fine! Do a little digging to find out their peculiarit>iesand nuances and you will be rewarded with a sense of tradition and fe>el closerto your plane and the group when it's finished. If you want eve>rything tiedup in a neat and perfect package, homebuilding ain't for you> whether you arebuilding a Piet or any other plane from plans.>>My vote is to revel in the tradition of the entire experience and leave t>he plansalone. If you have trouble deciphering some things, you're on th>e site toget ALL your questions answered (and more, sometimes) right her>e.>>Just hang in there, It'll all come together and be a beautiful thing, you>'llsee.>>>Larry>>________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet plans
Original Posted By: "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS"
Larry, I'm not sure I agree with you. In todays times, with thelitigation-happy population we have, I wonder if a simple disclaimer by thePietenpol folks on the plans would be appropriate, It could basically saythat the plans are drawn and the design was based on materials andtechniques commonly available and used in 1930 and that due diligence shouldbe performed to insure that the methods and techniques presented should beexamined to make sure they conform with acceptable standards currently inuse. I aint no lawyer but if I continued to make 100 bucks a pop off greatgranpa's 70 year old efforts, I would probably make an effort to either a)bring this thing into the 21st century or b) make damn sure a person whobuilt it understood that they needed to pay REAL close attention to theplans before they launched a project.I think that part of the problem may be that the Piet has developed areputation as being the simplest of the simple and all ya gotta do is buysome wood, glue it up and fly it. It's not really that simple - as we allknow.Maybe you and I and others are able or willng to do years worth of researchand ferrett out all these "inadequacies" before we build three of the samethings, but some folks may not be able or willing to figure all this out.I've been especially disappointed with grega's plans - BAD. But I've beenlucky enough to have some very experienced builders to follow around. Iguess you and I may appreciate how "cool" building from original plans is,but I can empathize with someone who doesn't have the resources around themto help figure all this stuff out.So have you flown your plane any more? We need to see some pictures.Anyway,Best at ya.Bert----- Original Message -----
Larry, I'm not sure I agree with you. In todays times, with thelitigation-happy population we have, I wonder if a simple disclaimer by thePietenpol folks on the plans would be appropriate, It could basically saythat the plans are drawn and the design was based on materials andtechniques commonly available and used in 1930 and that due diligence shouldbe performed to insure that the methods and techniques presented should beexamined to make sure they conform with acceptable standards currently inuse. I aint no lawyer but if I continued to make 100 bucks a pop off greatgranpa's 70 year old efforts, I would probably make an effort to either a)bring this thing into the 21st century or b) make damn sure a person whobuilt it understood that they needed to pay REAL close attention to theplans before they launched a project.I think that part of the problem may be that the Piet has developed areputation as being the simplest of the simple and all ya gotta do is buysome wood, glue it up and fly it. It's not really that simple - as we allknow.Maybe you and I and others are able or willng to do years worth of researchand ferrett out all these "inadequacies" before we build three of the samethings, but some folks may not be able or willing to figure all this out.I've been especially disappointed with grega's plans - BAD. But I've beenlucky enough to have some very experienced builders to follow around. Iguess you and I may appreciate how "cool" building from original plans is,but I can empathize with someone who doesn't have the resources around themto help figure all this stuff out.So have you flown your plane any more? We need to see some pictures.Anyway,Best at ya.Bert----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: Piet plans
Original Posted By: Larry Neal
> > Pietenpol-List: Piet plans
Original Posted By: "Cy Galley"
> >> >> >NOTHING needs to be "done" to the plans. You're building an old airplane> >from old plans......it's cool.> >> >I'm a first-time builder without a "mentor". I have used my wits, common> >sense, skills learned from other hobbies and the "obsolete" plans haveno> >t been an obstacle. They have been part of the journey and education(whi> >ch is one of the stated goals of homebuilding).> >> > I now have a nice Piet and yes, some piles of parts that didn't quitefi> >t. Boy, did I learn a lot, and I'm better for it. I submit that thosewho> > aren't willing to do some research and be prepared to wrestle withtheir> > own shortcomings should pick another project........or maybe findanothe> >r outlet for their leisure time and discretionary money instead ofbuildi> >ng an airplane.> >> >The Piet plans are fine! Do a little digging to find out theirpeculiarit> >ies and nuances and you will be rewarded with a sense of traditionandfe> >el closer to your plane and the group when it's finished. If you wanteve> >rything tied up in a neat and perfect package, homebuilding ain't foryou> > whether you are building a Piet or any other plane from plans.> >> >My vote is to revel in the tradition of the entire experience and leavet> >he plans alone. If you have trouble deciphering some things, you're on th=> >e site to get ALL your questions answered (and more, sometimes) righther> >e.> >> >Just hang in there, It'll all come together and be a beautiful thing,you> >'ll see.> >> >> >Larry> >> >>>________________________________________________________________________________
> >> >> >NOTHING needs to be "done" to the plans. You're building an old airplane> >from old plans......it's cool.> >> >I'm a first-time builder without a "mentor". I have used my wits, common> >sense, skills learned from other hobbies and the "obsolete" plans haveno> >t been an obstacle. They have been part of the journey and education(whi> >ch is one of the stated goals of homebuilding).> >> > I now have a nice Piet and yes, some piles of parts that didn't quitefi> >t. Boy, did I learn a lot, and I'm better for it. I submit that thosewho> > aren't willing to do some research and be prepared to wrestle withtheir> > own shortcomings should pick another project........or maybe findanothe> >r outlet for their leisure time and discretionary money instead ofbuildi> >ng an airplane.> >> >The Piet plans are fine! Do a little digging to find out theirpeculiarit> >ies and nuances and you will be rewarded with a sense of traditionandfe> >el closer to your plane and the group when it's finished. If you wanteve> >rything tied up in a neat and perfect package, homebuilding ain't foryou> > whether you are building a Piet or any other plane from plans.> >> >My vote is to revel in the tradition of the entire experience and leavet> >he plans alone. If you have trouble deciphering some things, you're on th=> >e site to get ALL your questions answered (and more, sometimes) righther> >e.> >> >Just hang in there, It'll all come together and be a beautiful thing,you> >'ll see.> >> >> >Larry> >> >>>________________________________________________________________________________
> > Pietenpol-List: Piet plans
Original Posted By: "Cy Galley"
> >> >> >NOTHING needs to be "done" to the plans. You're building an old airplane> >from old plans......it's cool.> >> >I'm a first-time builder without a "mentor". I have used my wits, common> >sense, skills learned from other hobbies and the "obsolete" plans haveno> >t been an obstacle. They have been part of the journey and education(whi> >ch is one of the stated goals of homebuilding).> >> > I now have a nice Piet and yes, some piles of parts that didn't quitefi> >t. Boy, did I learn a lot, and I'm better for it. I submit that thosewho> > aren't willing to do some research and be prepared to wrestle withtheir> > own shortcomings should pick another project........or maybe findanothe> >r outlet for their leisure time and discretionary money instead ofbuildi> >ng an airplane.> >> >The Piet plans are fine! Do a little digging to find out theirpeculiarit> >ies and nuances and you will be rewarded with a sense of traditionandfe> >el closer to your plane and the group when it's finished. If you wanteve> >rything tied up in a neat and perfect package, homebuilding ain't foryou> > whether you are building a Piet or any other plane from plans.> >> >My vote is to revel in the tradition of the entire experience and leavet> >he plans alone. If you have trouble deciphering some things, you're on th=> >e site to get ALL your questions answered (and more, sometimes) righther> >e.> >> >Just hang in there, It'll all come together and be a beautiful thing,you> >'ll see.> >> >> >Larry> >> >>>________________________________________________________________________________
> >> >> >NOTHING needs to be "done" to the plans. You're building an old airplane> >from old plans......it's cool.> >> >I'm a first-time builder without a "mentor". I have used my wits, common> >sense, skills learned from other hobbies and the "obsolete" plans haveno> >t been an obstacle. They have been part of the journey and education(whi> >ch is one of the stated goals of homebuilding).> >> > I now have a nice Piet and yes, some piles of parts that didn't quitefi> >t. Boy, did I learn a lot, and I'm better for it. I submit that thosewho> > aren't willing to do some research and be prepared to wrestle withtheir> > own shortcomings should pick another project........or maybe findanothe> >r outlet for their leisure time and discretionary money instead ofbuildi> >ng an airplane.> >> >The Piet plans are fine! Do a little digging to find out theirpeculiarit> >ies and nuances and you will be rewarded with a sense of traditionandfe> >el closer to your plane and the group when it's finished. If you wanteve> >rything tied up in a neat and perfect package, homebuilding ain't foryou> > whether you are building a Piet or any other plane from plans.> >> >My vote is to revel in the tradition of the entire experience and leavet> >he plans alone. If you have trouble deciphering some things, you're on th=> >e site to get ALL your questions answered (and more, sometimes) righther> >e.> >> >Just hang in there, It'll all come together and be a beautiful thing,you> >'ll see.> >> >> >Larry> >> >>>________________________________________________________________________________
> > > Pietenpol-List: Piet plans
Original Posted By: "Ted Brousseau"
> > >> > > >> > >NOTHING needs to be "done" to the plans. You're building an oldairplane> > >from old plans......it's cool.> > >> > >I'm a first-time builder without a "mentor". I have used my wits,common> > >sense, skills learned from other hobbies and the "obsolete" plans have> no> > >t been an obstacle. They have been part of the journey and education> (whi> > >ch is one of the stated goals of homebuilding).> > >> > > I now have a nice Piet and yes, some piles of parts that didn't quite> fi> > >t. Boy, did I learn a lot, and I'm better for it. I submit that those> who> > > aren't willing to do some research and be prepared to wrestle with> their> > > own shortcomings should pick another project........or maybe find> anothe> > >r outlet for their leisure time and discretionary money instead of> buildi> > >ng an airplane.> > >> > >The Piet plans are fine! Do a little digging to find out their> peculiarit> > >ies and nuances and you will be rewarded with a sense of traditionand> fe> > >el closer to your plane and the group when it's finished. If you want> eve> > >rything tied up in a neat and perfect package, homebuilding ain't for> you> > > whether you are building a Piet or any other plane from plans.> > >> > >My vote is to revel in the tradition of the entire experience and leave> t> > >he plans alone. If you have trouble deciphering some things, you're onth>> > >e site to get ALL your questions answered (and more, sometimes) right> her> > >e.> > >> > >Just hang in there, It'll all come together and be a beautiful thing,> you> > >'ll see.> > >> > >> > >Larry> > >> > >> >> >>>________________________________________________________________________________
> > >> > > >> > >NOTHING needs to be "done" to the plans. You're building an oldairplane> > >from old plans......it's cool.> > >> > >I'm a first-time builder without a "mentor". I have used my wits,common> > >sense, skills learned from other hobbies and the "obsolete" plans have> no> > >t been an obstacle. They have been part of the journey and education> (whi> > >ch is one of the stated goals of homebuilding).> > >> > > I now have a nice Piet and yes, some piles of parts that didn't quite> fi> > >t. Boy, did I learn a lot, and I'm better for it. I submit that those> who> > > aren't willing to do some research and be prepared to wrestle with> their> > > own shortcomings should pick another project........or maybe find> anothe> > >r outlet for their leisure time and discretionary money instead of> buildi> > >ng an airplane.> > >> > >The Piet plans are fine! Do a little digging to find out their> peculiarit> > >ies and nuances and you will be rewarded with a sense of traditionand> fe> > >el closer to your plane and the group when it's finished. If you want> eve> > >rything tied up in a neat and perfect package, homebuilding ain't for> you> > > whether you are building a Piet or any other plane from plans.> > >> > >My vote is to revel in the tradition of the entire experience and leave> t> > >he plans alone. If you have trouble deciphering some things, you're onth>> > >e site to get ALL your questions answered (and more, sometimes) right> her> > >e.> > >> > >Just hang in there, It'll all come together and be a beautiful thing,> you> > >'ll see.> > >> > >> > >Larry> > >> > >> >> >>>________________________________________________________________________________