Original Posted By: Ray Krause
Dear members,I have built one tail dragger, a Waiex, and have heard various opinions on wheelalignment for tail drawers. Some say that for a tail dragger, the wheels shouldbe straight, no tow (toe?)-in and no tow- out. This is what I believe at thistime. What is the opinion, experiences of the Pietenpol group?Sent from my iPad________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Wheel alignment....
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheel alignment....
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Well I have not read all the books or had enough discussion about it with expertsto know, but it seems to me that much of either would be bad but toe in seemslike it would be worse simply because when the aircraft starts to veer to theside the weight would transfer to the outside wheel. and if it is turned init would drive it into the turn even faster. where toe out might tend to tryto pull it out of the loop a little. that being said mine has a little toe in-I did not build it and attempted to straighten it some but that cub gear is mightytough for sure.RaymondRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheel alignment....
Well I have not read all the books or had enough discussion about it with expertsto know, but it seems to me that much of either would be bad but toe in seemslike it would be worse simply because when the aircraft starts to veer to theside the weight would transfer to the outside wheel. and if it is turned init would drive it into the turn even faster. where toe out might tend to tryto pull it out of the loop a little. that being said mine has a little toe in-I did not build it and attempted to straighten it some but that cub gear is mightytough for sure.RaymondRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheel alignment....
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheel alignment....
Original Posted By: "AircamperN11MS"
My airplane has no toe-in or toe-out and I've been told that it is best to rigconventional landing gear that way. If you prop up the tail so the airplane islevel on the mains (preferably with fuel in the tank), you can check this byclamping some lightweight wooden sticks (or pieces of tubing, or aluminum angles)onto the sides of the tires so that they project several feet out in frontof the wheels and then measuring the distance between them at the wheels andthen at the ends of the sticks.By the way, I got the Matco tailwheel installed and adjusted the spring tensionby changing chain links as needed. Tailwheel is ready and it's back in shape.The wings will go back onto the airplane next weekend. I'm excited! Gettingclose to being able to fire it up and do some taxi testing. It will be Scout'sfirst outing in Oregon. Oil needs to be drained, oil screen cleaned andchecked for metal, then I'll fuel it up, fire it up, warm it up, then shut downand check compression. All in good time.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheel alignment....
My airplane has no toe-in or toe-out and I've been told that it is best to rigconventional landing gear that way. If you prop up the tail so the airplane islevel on the mains (preferably with fuel in the tank), you can check this byclamping some lightweight wooden sticks (or pieces of tubing, or aluminum angles)onto the sides of the tires so that they project several feet out in frontof the wheels and then measuring the distance between them at the wheels andthen at the ends of the sticks.By the way, I got the Matco tailwheel installed and adjusted the spring tensionby changing chain links as needed. Tailwheel is ready and it's back in shape.The wings will go back onto the airplane next weekend. I'm excited! Gettingclose to being able to fire it up and do some taxi testing. It will be Scout'sfirst outing in Oregon. Oil needs to be drained, oil screen cleaned andchecked for metal, then I'll fuel it up, fire it up, warm it up, then shut downand check compression. All in good time.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheel alignment....
Original Posted By: Ray Krause
Ray,Exactly what Raymond said. He nailed it on the head. Shot for straight though.Very slight toe out is OK but any toe in is very bad.--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Ray,Exactly what Raymond said. He nailed it on the head. Shot for straight though.Very slight toe out is OK but any toe in is very bad.--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheel alignment....
Original Posted By: "Clif Dawson"
To all those responding to my questions about wheel alignment, thanks for all thehelp. My gear is toed out, but I think it can be fixed fairly easily. I willwait until rigging time when everything will be lined up. On my Waiex, I hadto have no toe in or out to make it right, but that is a 1" round titanium gear,lots of spring.Thanks, everyone!Ray Krause,SkyScout coming alongSent from my iPad> On Feb 2, 2014, at 6:25 PM, "AircamperN11MS" wrote:> > > Ray,> Exactly what Raymond said. He nailed it on the head. Shot for straight though.Very slight toe out is OK but any toe in is very bad.> > --------> Scott Liefeld> Flying N11MS since March 1972> Steel Tube> C-85-12> Wire Wheels> Brodhead in 1996> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 014#418014> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
To all those responding to my questions about wheel alignment, thanks for all thehelp. My gear is toed out, but I think it can be fixed fairly easily. I willwait until rigging time when everything will be lined up. On my Waiex, I hadto have no toe in or out to make it right, but that is a 1" round titanium gear,lots of spring.Thanks, everyone!Ray Krause,SkyScout coming alongSent from my iPad> On Feb 2, 2014, at 6:25 PM, "AircamperN11MS" wrote:> > > Ray,> Exactly what Raymond said. He nailed it on the head. Shot for straight though.Very slight toe out is OK but any toe in is very bad.> > --------> Scott Liefeld> Flying N11MS since March 1972> Steel Tube> C-85-12> Wire Wheels> Brodhead in 1996> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 014#418014> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheel alignment....
Original Posted By: Steven Dortch
No more guessing! :-)ClifEverything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. Einstein>> I don't remember where I read it (bingelis books?), but I heard the > formula to find the best horsepower is to take the cube of your weight > times your pecker plus eight. This is the minimum hp for your weight. Then > add 25% for optimum hp. Don't quote me on that though.>> --------> KLNC________________________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2014 08:26:42 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheel alignment....
No more guessing! :-)ClifEverything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. Einstein>> I don't remember where I read it (bingelis books?), but I heard the > formula to find the best horsepower is to take the cube of your weight > times your pecker plus eight. This is the minimum hp for your weight. Then > add 25% for optimum hp. Don't quote me on that though.>> --------> KLNC________________________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2014 08:26:42 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheel alignment....
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheel alignment....
Original Posted By: Steven Dortch
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheel alignment....
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheel alignment....
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheel alignment....
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
I do have it Don. After a long build hiatus from having a child and a career changewe are finally back at it. We actually have tubing in the jig right nowand should be done with the jig shortly. I see no reason why one couldn't usespacers on the outside of the rails to make a wider mount. Once we are done Iwould gladly deliver the jig or meet whoever is next in line as I'm always lookingfor a place to fly. Fred--------Fred KimPittsburgh, PaRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheel alignment....
I do have it Don. After a long build hiatus from having a child and a career changewe are finally back at it. We actually have tubing in the jig right nowand should be done with the jig shortly. I see no reason why one couldn't usespacers on the outside of the rails to make a wider mount. Once we are done Iwould gladly deliver the jig or meet whoever is next in line as I'm always lookingfor a place to fly. Fred--------Fred KimPittsburgh, PaRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheel alignment....
Original Posted By: Yahoo! Account Service
Steve; back to your question (and the observation offered by Tools)- it shouldnot change the toe-in/out geometry when you load the cockpit, so you shouldn'tneed to check it with you or anybody else sitting in the airplane but it wouldn'thurt, either. It will change the track and camber, obviously.I flew Scout for one summer season with washers, not proper shims, correcting thetoe-in/out on one axle because it was not straight. That's not the properway to do it, but you can at least fiddle with thin or thick washers (or put oneon the belt sander to get it right)- and find the necessary shim thicknessand angle you need if you have Cessna type axles with the 4-bolt mount pads. Please recognize that washers are not the proper way to correct the situationthough ;o)--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 21:10:47 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Steve; back to your question (and the observation offered by Tools)- it shouldnot change the toe-in/out geometry when you load the cockpit, so you shouldn'tneed to check it with you or anybody else sitting in the airplane but it wouldn'thurt, either. It will change the track and camber, obviously.I flew Scout for one summer season with washers, not proper shims, correcting thetoe-in/out on one axle because it was not straight. That's not the properway to do it, but you can at least fiddle with thin or thick washers (or put oneon the belt sander to get it right)- and find the necessary shim thicknessand angle you need if you have Cessna type axles with the 4-bolt mount pads. Please recognize that washers are not the proper way to correct the situationthough ;o)--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 21:10:47 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheel alignment....
Original Posted By: "AircamperN11MS"
Jack,If waiting for heat and humidity to go down doesn't work, I'll try it.Thanks,TimOn 11/4/2015 2:23 PM, Jack wrote:>> Tim just an idea... If you have not varnished yet, wet the underside of one baywith a cloth and see how it dries. Maybe heat with an iron???>> Sent from my iPad> Jack Textor>>> On Nov 4, 2015, at 7:53 AM, Tim White wrote:>>>> Two weeks ago I glued (T-88) 1/16" Okoume plywood to my leading edge (trammeledwith ribs, compression struts and leading edge glued). I used cargo strapsaround each rib and clamps on the font edge to secure it while curing. Broughtthe wing to Florida for the winter and found the plywood was sunken or wavybetween several of the ribs (picture). The other wing seems OK with a slightbulge on the plywood away from the leading edge. I am at a loss to determinehow this happened unless I got the cargo straps too tight. I assume this deformationwill transmit through the fabric (not having covered an airplane before).I want to remove it and try over. Any ideas of what went wrong? Any ideason how to remove it?>>>> Tim White>> Ocklawaha, Fl>> >>________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheel alignment....
Jack,If waiting for heat and humidity to go down doesn't work, I'll try it.Thanks,TimOn 11/4/2015 2:23 PM, Jack wrote:>> Tim just an idea... If you have not varnished yet, wet the underside of one baywith a cloth and see how it dries. Maybe heat with an iron???>> Sent from my iPad> Jack Textor>>> On Nov 4, 2015, at 7:53 AM, Tim White wrote:>>>> Two weeks ago I glued (T-88) 1/16" Okoume plywood to my leading edge (trammeledwith ribs, compression struts and leading edge glued). I used cargo strapsaround each rib and clamps on the font edge to secure it while curing. Broughtthe wing to Florida for the winter and found the plywood was sunken or wavybetween several of the ribs (picture). The other wing seems OK with a slightbulge on the plywood away from the leading edge. I am at a loss to determinehow this happened unless I got the cargo straps too tight. I assume this deformationwill transmit through the fabric (not having covered an airplane before).I want to remove it and try over. Any ideas of what went wrong? Any ideason how to remove it?>>>> Tim White>> Ocklawaha, Fl>> >>________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheel alignment....
Original Posted By: Ray Krause
Excellent article Bill, great input.--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Excellent article Bill, great input.--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Is this meant to be a Piet?
Original Posted By:>> owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-l
I think this would certainly be an act of kindness. Maybe some of our experts that we rely on could help him. I think Scott L or Oscar Z would be the best sources. I fear that the maximum weight might be the main culprit. It seems that the metal used, as well as the "lumber" might have resulted in exceeding the MTOW, whatever that might be. If it might get off the ground with his power source, we don't want him to hurt himself, or others.He certainly is to be admired! I've been to rather "backward" countries and could not even imagine trying such a project. His ambition puts me to shame, for sure.Ray KrauseSent from my iPad> On Nov 4, 2015, at 10:57 PM, Semih Oksay wrote:> > Looks ok compared to some homebuilts. I would check cg very carefully=8B and the power plant? Obviously a Piet inspired project. Can we reach and warn him about at least cg if all else is fine?> > Semih> > 2015-11-05 0:04 GMT+02:00 The real bike Mike :>> He might save some weight by taking the sprockets off the motorcycle wheels.>> >> >>
I think this would certainly be an act of kindness. Maybe some of our experts that we rely on could help him. I think Scott L or Oscar Z would be the best sources. I fear that the maximum weight might be the main culprit. It seems that the metal used, as well as the "lumber" might have resulted in exceeding the MTOW, whatever that might be. If it might get off the ground with his power source, we don't want him to hurt himself, or others.He certainly is to be admired! I've been to rather "backward" countries and could not even imagine trying such a project. His ambition puts me to shame, for sure.Ray KrauseSent from my iPad> On Nov 4, 2015, at 10:57 PM, Semih Oksay wrote:> > Looks ok compared to some homebuilts. I would check cg very carefully=8B and the power plant? Obviously a Piet inspired project. Can we reach and warn him about at least cg if all else is fine?> > Semih> > 2015-11-05 0:04 GMT+02:00 The real bike Mike :>> He might save some weight by taking the sprockets off the motorcycle wheels.>> >> >>
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheel alignment....
Original Posted By: "TriScout"
The lead edge is very critical to the airflow and must be have a very smooth transitionor you will not have an laminar airflow which could stall the wing athigher airspeed.Issue with not using aircraft grade plywood ... ? Did a plywood leading edge onmy Piper L-4, still smooth as when I applied it. See pictures on my link below.Remove and start over .... no covering will help it and if reworked with heat,will come back later with humidity changes. Apply new skins and seal right awayto stabilize the wood.Be safe!WF2--------Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheel alignment....
The lead edge is very critical to the airflow and must be have a very smooth transitionor you will not have an laminar airflow which could stall the wing athigher airspeed.Issue with not using aircraft grade plywood ... ? Did a plywood leading edge onmy Piper L-4, still smooth as when I applied it. See pictures on my link below.Remove and start over .... no covering will help it and if reworked with heat,will come back later with humidity changes. Apply new skins and seal right awayto stabilize the wood.Be safe!WF2--------Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wheel alignment....
Original Posted By: Ray Krause
Hmmm... Good post. My GN-1 always seems a bit squirrely on hard surface landings...gottadance on the rudder pedals much more so than in a Cub or a Champ. Theright J3 gear leg always had a twist in it since a previous owner wiped outin a takeoff incident back in 2000. When it was repaired, it looks like they mighthave stuck it in a vice and eyeballed it. I am considering buying a new RHgear for my next annual..unless I can find a decent used one.Lar--------KLNCA65-8N2308CSlick 4330'sAN HardwareAirframe 755TTW72CK-42 SensenichStandard Factory GN-1Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_ ... __________
Hmmm... Good post. My GN-1 always seems a bit squirrely on hard surface landings...gottadance on the rudder pedals much more so than in a Cub or a Champ. Theright J3 gear leg always had a twist in it since a previous owner wiped outin a takeoff incident back in 2000. When it was repaired, it looks like they mighthave stuck it in a vice and eyeballed it. I am considering buying a new RHgear for my next annual..unless I can find a decent used one.Lar--------KLNCA65-8N2308CSlick 4330'sAN HardwareAirframe 755TTW72CK-42 SensenichStandard Factory GN-1Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_ ... __________