Original Posted By: "Boatright, Jeffrey"
I am rebuilding a long fuse Piet and want to us a Model A or B. I couldn'tfind much on it in the archives. It looks like most of the stretch on thefuse in in the front. Has anyone done this?Thanks for any help.Jerry Grogan Sky Classic Aircraft________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Long fuselage and Model A
Pietenpol-List: Re: Long fuselage and Model A
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Semih; I'm going to be 66 in a few months so I'm not far behind you, and my predictionis that your 5/8" vertical stabilizer offset will be pretty good, butnot perfect.And I not only remember trig, I actually use it and enjoy it in my engineeringwork There is a link between science, mathematics, and philosophy that trigonometrycaptures. Those who know and understand the mathematical constant pi knowwhat I mean. The perfection of a circle is described mathematically (andtrigonometrically) by pi- and yet pi is an irrational number that cannot be quantifiedas a fraction, its decimal digits never repeat into infinity, it is notthe root of any non-zero polynomial, and as such it is a transcendental number-but even the beginning student can grasp how it perfectly, exactly, describesthe ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter. By the use of thisrelationship we understand everything from astrophysics to geolocation to howto divide a pizza into equal parts even if there are an odd number of peopleto be served ;o)Good for you, Oldbird!--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power, 72x36 Culver propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Long fuselage and Model A
Semih; I'm going to be 66 in a few months so I'm not far behind you, and my predictionis that your 5/8" vertical stabilizer offset will be pretty good, butnot perfect.And I not only remember trig, I actually use it and enjoy it in my engineeringwork There is a link between science, mathematics, and philosophy that trigonometrycaptures. Those who know and understand the mathematical constant pi knowwhat I mean. The perfection of a circle is described mathematically (andtrigonometrically) by pi- and yet pi is an irrational number that cannot be quantifiedas a fraction, its decimal digits never repeat into infinity, it is notthe root of any non-zero polynomial, and as such it is a transcendental number-but even the beginning student can grasp how it perfectly, exactly, describesthe ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter. By the use of thisrelationship we understand everything from astrophysics to geolocation to howto divide a pizza into equal parts even if there are an odd number of peopleto be served ;o)Good for you, Oldbird!--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power, 72x36 Culver propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Long fuselage and Model A
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Long fuselage and Model A
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Thanks Oscar for the info. I am more thinking I might be tail heavy. I amjust going through the entire airplane and fixing and making sure everythingis airworthy. The airplane came with the old plans and I do not have thelong fuse plans. It had an O290 GPU up front. I think a model A or B willwork. I will have the option to adjust the wing forward if needed. I guess Ijust need to get everything mounted and weigh it and do the math. -----Original Message-----
Thanks Oscar for the info. I am more thinking I might be tail heavy. I amjust going through the entire airplane and fixing and making sure everythingis airworthy. The airplane came with the old plans and I do not have thelong fuse plans. It had an O290 GPU up front. I think a model A or B willwork. I will have the option to adjust the wing forward if needed. I guess Ijust need to get everything mounted and weigh it and do the math. -----Original Message-----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Long fuselage and Model A
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I ment to say nose heavy-----Original Message-----
I ment to say nose heavy-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Long fuselage and Model A
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Vertical Offset w/CorvairWhy heck! You could be an illegal alien!That is funny.It is amazing how tied up on paperwork we can get.Thanks for your service.On Jan 23, 2017 10:05 AM, "Charles N. Campbell" wrote:> No, sorry. That brought up an interesting memory. When I joined the US> Navy in 1941 I had to have a birth certificate. Mother didn't have one so> I went to the office of vital statistics in Raleigh NC to get one. I told> the clerk my name and he went back to the record section. He came back> with a handful of certificates and handed them to me and said, "Take your> pick." There were more than a dozen Charles Campbells in North Carolina> alone -- no telling how many in the US. Chuck>> On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 10:16 AM, Steven Dortch > wrote:>>> Are you the Charles Campbell who spoke at the Redbird symposium at San>> Marcos?>>>> On Jan 23, 2017 7:54 AM, "Charles N. Campbell" > charlescampbell1924(at)gmail.com> wrote:>>>>> Oscar, I just hope my Piet gets flown before I pass to the great>>> hereafter! I think I'll make it, but then there is a possibility that I>>> won't. Chuck>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 10:52 PM, taildrags >>> wrote:>>>>>>> taildrags(at)hotmail.com>>>>>>>>> Chuck: the reason I didn't want to mess with moving or fabricating new>>>> rear L-brackets for the aft edge of the vertical stabilizer was "laziness">>>> ;o) Yes, I could do that and accommodate another 1.4 degrees of twist>>>> without worrying about the wood spar. I know you think that slight angle>>>> of rotation sounds insignificant, but when you push the leading edge of the>>>> VS over and watch the rear spar stay fixed as everything else tightens up,>>>> you start thinking about the glue joints and everything else, and I didn't>>>> like the feeling as I pushed it over past the 1/2" that I gave it.>>>>>>>> By the way, the builder of my Piet, Corky Corbett, will also be 93 this>>>> year (I believe)- but he completed and flew NX41CC as a much younger man>>>> than you... he was only 80 ;o)>>>>>>>> -------->>>> Oscar Zuniga>>>> Medford, OR>>>> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout">>>> A75 power, 72x36 Culver prop>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read this topic online here:>>>>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 322#465322>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ==========>>>> br> enpol-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.mat>>>> ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>>>> ==========>>>> FORUMS ->>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com>>>> ==========>>>> WIKI ->>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com>>>> ==========>>>> b Site ->>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.>>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution>>>> ==========>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Long fuselage and Model A
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Vertical Offset w/CorvairWhy heck! You could be an illegal alien!That is funny.It is amazing how tied up on paperwork we can get.Thanks for your service.On Jan 23, 2017 10:05 AM, "Charles N. Campbell" wrote:> No, sorry. That brought up an interesting memory. When I joined the US> Navy in 1941 I had to have a birth certificate. Mother didn't have one so> I went to the office of vital statistics in Raleigh NC to get one. I told> the clerk my name and he went back to the record section. He came back> with a handful of certificates and handed them to me and said, "Take your> pick." There were more than a dozen Charles Campbells in North Carolina> alone -- no telling how many in the US. Chuck>> On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 10:16 AM, Steven Dortch > wrote:>>> Are you the Charles Campbell who spoke at the Redbird symposium at San>> Marcos?>>>> On Jan 23, 2017 7:54 AM, "Charles N. Campbell" > charlescampbell1924(at)gmail.com> wrote:>>>>> Oscar, I just hope my Piet gets flown before I pass to the great>>> hereafter! I think I'll make it, but then there is a possibility that I>>> won't. Chuck>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 10:52 PM, taildrags >>> wrote:>>>>>>> taildrags(at)hotmail.com>>>>>>>>> Chuck: the reason I didn't want to mess with moving or fabricating new>>>> rear L-brackets for the aft edge of the vertical stabilizer was "laziness">>>> ;o) Yes, I could do that and accommodate another 1.4 degrees of twist>>>> without worrying about the wood spar. I know you think that slight angle>>>> of rotation sounds insignificant, but when you push the leading edge of the>>>> VS over and watch the rear spar stay fixed as everything else tightens up,>>>> you start thinking about the glue joints and everything else, and I didn't>>>> like the feeling as I pushed it over past the 1/2" that I gave it.>>>>>>>> By the way, the builder of my Piet, Corky Corbett, will also be 93 this>>>> year (I believe)- but he completed and flew NX41CC as a much younger man>>>> than you... he was only 80 ;o)>>>>>>>> -------->>>> Oscar Zuniga>>>> Medford, OR>>>> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout">>>> A75 power, 72x36 Culver prop>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read this topic online here:>>>>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 322#465322>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ==========>>>> br> enpol-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.mat>>>> ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>>>> ==========>>>> FORUMS ->>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com>>>> ==========>>>> WIKI ->>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com>>>> ==========>>>> b Site ->>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.>>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution>>>> ==========>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Long fuselage and Model A
Original Posted By: "JERRY"
Jerry; I would be happy to help you with whatever information you want to knowabout the long fuselage. I own a complete set of Pietenpol Family plans fromwhich no Air Camper has yet been constructed, and I also have a set from whichmy airplane was built. I think everyone in this group is in favor of a builder/pilotknowing exactly what he/she has, and sharing information from the planscan help you build and fly safely.A few quick dimensional checks of your fuselage sides will tell which of the variousversions of fuselage you've got, and in fact there are some very detailedfuselage comparisons available in the Matronics list archives. As I recall,the most complete comparison identifies four different "stock" or "plans" fuselagevariants, although there are probably dozens of one-off variants.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power, 72x36 Culver propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Jerry; I would be happy to help you with whatever information you want to knowabout the long fuselage. I own a complete set of Pietenpol Family plans fromwhich no Air Camper has yet been constructed, and I also have a set from whichmy airplane was built. I think everyone in this group is in favor of a builder/pilotknowing exactly what he/she has, and sharing information from the planscan help you build and fly safely.A few quick dimensional checks of your fuselage sides will tell which of the variousversions of fuselage you've got, and in fact there are some very detailedfuselage comparisons available in the Matronics list archives. As I recall,the most complete comparison identifies four different "stock" or "plans" fuselagevariants, although there are probably dozens of one-off variants.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power, 72x36 Culver propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Long fuselage and Model A
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Thanks again Oscar. I have attached a picture of my fuse measurements. Mostof the length is in the front of the fuse.ThanksJerry-----Original Message-----
Thanks again Oscar. I have attached a picture of my fuse measurements. Mostof the length is in the front of the fuse.ThanksJerry-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Long fuselage and Model A
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Douwe: this is very interesting. Now for my disclaimer: I'm no structural engineer!However, in my humble opinion, the effectiveness of this hybrid compositestructure (your internally-braced Jenny axle) in resisting bending is goingto be maximized by a good epoxy bond between the carbon 'bar' and the steel tubewalls. The hard foam filler will certainly stabilize things to resist bucklingor warping of the bar under bending loads, no problem there. Now whetherthe full potential of the bar is developed will be determined by its abilityto accept tension loads in its lower strands as the bending is transferred tothe bar from the steel tube. If you got a good epoxy bond between them and youensure that the bar is vertical with respect to axle travel in the gear legs,it sounds like you've got yourself a very elegant solution to stiffening theaxle without adding significant weight!There are builders who take the "bigger hammer" approach like me, and then thereare artists like yourself ;o)--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power, 72x36 Culver propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Long fuselage and Model A
Douwe: this is very interesting. Now for my disclaimer: I'm no structural engineer!However, in my humble opinion, the effectiveness of this hybrid compositestructure (your internally-braced Jenny axle) in resisting bending is goingto be maximized by a good epoxy bond between the carbon 'bar' and the steel tubewalls. The hard foam filler will certainly stabilize things to resist bucklingor warping of the bar under bending loads, no problem there. Now whetherthe full potential of the bar is developed will be determined by its abilityto accept tension loads in its lower strands as the bending is transferred tothe bar from the steel tube. If you got a good epoxy bond between them and youensure that the bar is vertical with respect to axle travel in the gear legs,it sounds like you've got yourself a very elegant solution to stiffening theaxle without adding significant weight!There are builders who take the "bigger hammer" approach like me, and then thereare artists like yourself ;o)--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power, 72x36 Culver propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Long fuselage and Model A
Original Posted By: "JERRY"
Jerry; it looks like what you've got there is a one-off variant. For your information,here's a snip from a very thorough dissertation on Piet fuselage lengthvariations by Chris Bobka, from around 2004. He's responding to a questionfrom builder Walt Evans and it has to do with the axle location because that'spretty important to how the airplane will handle on the ground, but look pastsome of that to see the information on some key dimensions. Get a piece ofscratch paper and a pencil and sketch it out. You might check some other dimensionson your airframe, but you may very likely have a hermaphrodite there...but not unprecedented. And by the way, Walt Evans built and flew his absolutelygorgeous Air Camper successfully, and you can see pictures of it on the Westcoastpiet.comsite. Here's one such picture: http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/WB% ... 200Fly.jpg Note that Chris refers to a "Pavliga long fuselage" (Frank Pavliga, a legend inthe Piet world)- with a fuselage of 172.375" long. If I've added up the numbersin your sketch correctly, your fuselage is 172" long, so there is at leastone other airplane out there flying with a fuselage that is within 3/8" of beingthe same length as yours and Pavliga's. Not to worry though... the lawsof physics still apply, which means that one or more of the very useful CG calculationspreadsheets out there will help you build and fly a safe airplane. We put men on the moon with nothing more than slide rules... so anything is possibleif you have a spreadsheet. Here's some reading for you, snipped from thearchives.================The 1932 fuselage (Hoopman drawings and 1932 Flying and Glider Manual) is 161 incheslong. The 1933 Improved Air Camper fuselage is 163 inches long. The Pavligalong fuselage is 172.375 inches long. This is the one I understand youhave built.It appears that the intersection of the first truss verticals with the lower longeronon the 1932 fuselage is 8.375 or 8.5 inches aft of the firewall, dependingon which set of plans you look at. On the 1933 Improved fuselage, it is 10inches, and on the Pavliga long fuselage, it is 12 inches. This would meanthat the wood gear, unmodified from the 1932 plans and as mounted on the Pavligalong fuselage, would put the axle 12-8.5 or 3.5 inches farther aft on the longfuselage than on the 1932 fuselage. It would be at 13.5 (see paragraph 1sentence 1) + 3.5 or 17 inches aft of the firewall. Is this a good place forit? Frank P. said it was too far forward at 17 inches aft of the firewall sohe moved it aft when he did the engine switch.A better indicator of proper gear position is comparing it to the rear seat backposition in the particular fuselage since this indicates the shift aft of theCG position as the fuselages have been stretched. The rear seat back (at thetop longeron) in the 1932 fuselage is 70.5 inches aft of the firewall. Therear seat back in the 1933 Improved fuselage is 72.25 inches aft of the firewall.The rear seat back of the Pavliga long fuselage is 76.25 inches aft of thefirewall. This is a substantial shift aft in the position of the CG versusthe axle position as the fuselage is stretched.Therefore, the axle on the 1932 fuselage is 70.5 -13.5 or 57 inches forward ofthe rear seat back. The axle on the 1933 Improved is 72.25 -17 or 55.25 inchesforward of the rear seat back. Let us ignore the value from the 1932 fuselagefor reasons to be discussed later. Using the number from 1933 and applyingthis to the Pavliga long fuselage, we should have the axle at 76.25 - 55.25 or21 inches aft of the firewall. Two paragraphs ago we determined that it willactually wind up at 17 inches aft of the firewall with the wood gear, unmodified,and Frank P. says this is too far forward. Therefore, it appears that weneed to redesign the gear so that the axle will sit farther aft in the V to thetune of about 21 -17 or 4 inches.As we noted above, if you look at the sweep of the V in the 1932 plans, you willnote that the front attach of the V is at 8.5 inches aft of the firewall. Weknow that the axle is about 13.5 inches aft of the firewall. Therefore, thesweep is 13.5 - 8.5 or 5 inches for the wood gear. Doing the same analysis forthe 1933 Improved Air Camper, we know the front attach of the V is at 10 inchesaft of the firewall and the axle is at 17 inches aft of the firewall. Thereforethe sweep is 17 -10 or 7 inches for the split axle gear. The next sentenceis important. If you put the 1932 wood gear on a 1933 Improved fuselage, youwould have an axle that will be 7 - 5 or 2 inches forward of where it wouldhave been if you had used the split axle gear!!!! So the gears are not necessarilyinterchangeable!!! Logic says that it does not matter which style gearyou use. The axle should always be in the same relative position. I see thisas an admission by BP that the original 1932 axle was too far forward by 2 inches.And now we know what Frank P. was talking about!!!!It is obvious that BP saw fit, when designing the 1933 Improved Air Camper, thatif he lengthened the fuselage from 161 to 163 inches and moved the pilot's rearseat back aft by 1.75 inches, then he must move the axle aft by 17 -13.5 -2 or 1.5 inches. (Consider 2 of the 3.5 inch difference between 17 and 13.5as a design correction and the remaining 1.5 of the 3.5 inches to be an adjustmentfor the new fuselage length and movement aft of the rear seat back.) Sowhat would BP do if he made the fuselage 172.375 inches long (a whopping 9.375inches longer) and moved the rear seat back aft yet another 76.25 -72.25 or 4inches?--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power, 72x36 Culver propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Jerry; it looks like what you've got there is a one-off variant. For your information,here's a snip from a very thorough dissertation on Piet fuselage lengthvariations by Chris Bobka, from around 2004. He's responding to a questionfrom builder Walt Evans and it has to do with the axle location because that'spretty important to how the airplane will handle on the ground, but look pastsome of that to see the information on some key dimensions. Get a piece ofscratch paper and a pencil and sketch it out. You might check some other dimensionson your airframe, but you may very likely have a hermaphrodite there...but not unprecedented. And by the way, Walt Evans built and flew his absolutelygorgeous Air Camper successfully, and you can see pictures of it on the Westcoastpiet.comsite. Here's one such picture: http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/WB% ... 200Fly.jpg Note that Chris refers to a "Pavliga long fuselage" (Frank Pavliga, a legend inthe Piet world)- with a fuselage of 172.375" long. If I've added up the numbersin your sketch correctly, your fuselage is 172" long, so there is at leastone other airplane out there flying with a fuselage that is within 3/8" of beingthe same length as yours and Pavliga's. Not to worry though... the lawsof physics still apply, which means that one or more of the very useful CG calculationspreadsheets out there will help you build and fly a safe airplane. We put men on the moon with nothing more than slide rules... so anything is possibleif you have a spreadsheet. Here's some reading for you, snipped from thearchives.================The 1932 fuselage (Hoopman drawings and 1932 Flying and Glider Manual) is 161 incheslong. The 1933 Improved Air Camper fuselage is 163 inches long. The Pavligalong fuselage is 172.375 inches long. This is the one I understand youhave built.It appears that the intersection of the first truss verticals with the lower longeronon the 1932 fuselage is 8.375 or 8.5 inches aft of the firewall, dependingon which set of plans you look at. On the 1933 Improved fuselage, it is 10inches, and on the Pavliga long fuselage, it is 12 inches. This would meanthat the wood gear, unmodified from the 1932 plans and as mounted on the Pavligalong fuselage, would put the axle 12-8.5 or 3.5 inches farther aft on the longfuselage than on the 1932 fuselage. It would be at 13.5 (see paragraph 1sentence 1) + 3.5 or 17 inches aft of the firewall. Is this a good place forit? Frank P. said it was too far forward at 17 inches aft of the firewall sohe moved it aft when he did the engine switch.A better indicator of proper gear position is comparing it to the rear seat backposition in the particular fuselage since this indicates the shift aft of theCG position as the fuselages have been stretched. The rear seat back (at thetop longeron) in the 1932 fuselage is 70.5 inches aft of the firewall. Therear seat back in the 1933 Improved fuselage is 72.25 inches aft of the firewall.The rear seat back of the Pavliga long fuselage is 76.25 inches aft of thefirewall. This is a substantial shift aft in the position of the CG versusthe axle position as the fuselage is stretched.Therefore, the axle on the 1932 fuselage is 70.5 -13.5 or 57 inches forward ofthe rear seat back. The axle on the 1933 Improved is 72.25 -17 or 55.25 inchesforward of the rear seat back. Let us ignore the value from the 1932 fuselagefor reasons to be discussed later. Using the number from 1933 and applyingthis to the Pavliga long fuselage, we should have the axle at 76.25 - 55.25 or21 inches aft of the firewall. Two paragraphs ago we determined that it willactually wind up at 17 inches aft of the firewall with the wood gear, unmodified,and Frank P. says this is too far forward. Therefore, it appears that weneed to redesign the gear so that the axle will sit farther aft in the V to thetune of about 21 -17 or 4 inches.As we noted above, if you look at the sweep of the V in the 1932 plans, you willnote that the front attach of the V is at 8.5 inches aft of the firewall. Weknow that the axle is about 13.5 inches aft of the firewall. Therefore, thesweep is 13.5 - 8.5 or 5 inches for the wood gear. Doing the same analysis forthe 1933 Improved Air Camper, we know the front attach of the V is at 10 inchesaft of the firewall and the axle is at 17 inches aft of the firewall. Thereforethe sweep is 17 -10 or 7 inches for the split axle gear. The next sentenceis important. If you put the 1932 wood gear on a 1933 Improved fuselage, youwould have an axle that will be 7 - 5 or 2 inches forward of where it wouldhave been if you had used the split axle gear!!!! So the gears are not necessarilyinterchangeable!!! Logic says that it does not matter which style gearyou use. The axle should always be in the same relative position. I see thisas an admission by BP that the original 1932 axle was too far forward by 2 inches.And now we know what Frank P. was talking about!!!!It is obvious that BP saw fit, when designing the 1933 Improved Air Camper, thatif he lengthened the fuselage from 161 to 163 inches and moved the pilot's rearseat back aft by 1.75 inches, then he must move the axle aft by 17 -13.5 -2 or 1.5 inches. (Consider 2 of the 3.5 inch difference between 17 and 13.5as a design correction and the remaining 1.5 of the 3.5 inches to be an adjustmentfor the new fuselage length and movement aft of the rear seat back.) Sowhat would BP do if he made the fuselage 172.375 inches long (a whopping 9.375inches longer) and moved the rear seat back aft yet another 76.25 -72.25 or 4inches?--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power, 72x36 Culver propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Long fuselage and Model A
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Thanks again Oscar I am sure I can figure it out. I too think that I have anone-off fuselage were most if not all of the added length is in the nose. Iwill have to do a W & B calculation but I am betting that I will have tomove the wing forward a little and place the Model A or B engine as far backas possible. Also I can lose some weight up front with an aluminum head andmaybe some other mods. It will help that I am 220 lbs. Also I have foundthat the gear are totally junk as over half of the main tube was rustedthrough. So I will have to make new gear. So I can get it placed where Iwant it. I have not emailed Bob yet but will do that today. I do have apicture working on the wing on the Pietenpol facebook group with mygrandson. He comes over every Thursday night to help or me help him I am notsure. It forces me to have something ready for him to work on so the planeis coming along nicely. -----Original Message-----
Thanks again Oscar I am sure I can figure it out. I too think that I have anone-off fuselage were most if not all of the added length is in the nose. Iwill have to do a W & B calculation but I am betting that I will have tomove the wing forward a little and place the Model A or B engine as far backas possible. Also I can lose some weight up front with an aluminum head andmaybe some other mods. It will help that I am 220 lbs. Also I have foundthat the gear are totally junk as over half of the main tube was rustedthrough. So I will have to make new gear. So I can get it placed where Iwant it. I have not emailed Bob yet but will do that today. I do have apicture working on the wing on the Pietenpol facebook group with mygrandson. He comes over every Thursday night to help or me help him I am notsure. It forces me to have something ready for him to work on so the planeis coming along nicely. -----Original Message-----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Long fuselage and Model A
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Oops I should have thanked taildrags. I have been up to the fly inn a coupletime with Jack Textor bet did not talk to many people there. Someday I hopeto fly it up there.Thanks very much for the help.Jerry-----Original Message-----
Oops I should have thanked taildrags. I have been up to the fly inn a coupletime with Jack Textor bet did not talk to many people there. Someday I hopeto fly it up there.Thanks very much for the help.Jerry-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Long fuselage and Model A
Original Posted By: "skipgadd(at)earthlink.net"
Jerry: "taildrags R us" ;o) Oscar Zunigataildrags(at)hotmail.com--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power, 72x36 Culver propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2017 08:06:48 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Jerry: "taildrags R us" ;o) Oscar Zunigataildrags(at)hotmail.com--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power, 72x36 Culver propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2017 08:06:48 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Pietenpol-List: Re: Lower forward seat back
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
I built the forward seat back as described on the plans. In relation to the whiteash cross strut on the floor, it appears I'm supposed to cut a notch in thewhite ash for the diagonal spruce boards (attached to the seat back).I just want to make sure. It seems to make more sense to leave the ash as is andcut the spruce to sit on it.Just checking before I cut the white ash.Thank you,John--------JohnRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Lower forward seat back
I built the forward seat back as described on the plans. In relation to the whiteash cross strut on the floor, it appears I'm supposed to cut a notch in thewhite ash for the diagonal spruce boards (attached to the seat back).I just want to make sure. It seems to make more sense to leave the ash as is andcut the spruce to sit on it.Just checking before I cut the white ash.Thank you,John--------JohnRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Lower forward seat back
Pietenpol-List: Re: Lower forward seat back
Original Posted By: "Pocono John"
John,I don't have the plans handy, but I'm pretty certain that the ash cross memberdoes not get notched.What part of the drawings gives you the impression that it should be notched?Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Lower forward seat back
John,I don't have the plans handy, but I'm pretty certain that the ash cross memberdoes not get notched.What part of the drawings gives you the impression that it should be notched?Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Lower forward seat back
Pietenpol-List: Re: flying and glider manual
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Hi Bill,I made the front seat back as detailed at the bottom of drawing 1.On drawing 3 in the center left is a profile showing the seat back and a note thatit's nailed to the ash crossmember.When placing the ash in position, the only way for it to make contact with theseat back is to cut a notch in the ash. The V shaped spruce boards on the seatback are in the way.Back to drawing 1, in the lower right area, is a constructional view of the frontcockpit. Looking at that, I can't tell if the V boards are going into the ash(a notch) or the V ends at the top surface of the ash.It seems to me if I make the seat back according to plans, I have to cut a notchin the ash.If there's no notch in the ash, then the V has to begin an inch up from the edgeof the plywood.Maybe I'm missing something? Measuring error?Thanks,John--------JohnRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: flying and glider manual
Hi Bill,I made the front seat back as detailed at the bottom of drawing 1.On drawing 3 in the center left is a profile showing the seat back and a note thatit's nailed to the ash crossmember.When placing the ash in position, the only way for it to make contact with theseat back is to cut a notch in the ash. The V shaped spruce boards on the seatback are in the way.Back to drawing 1, in the lower right area, is a constructional view of the frontcockpit. Looking at that, I can't tell if the V boards are going into the ash(a notch) or the V ends at the top surface of the ash.It seems to me if I make the seat back according to plans, I have to cut a notchin the ash.If there's no notch in the ash, then the V has to begin an inch up from the edgeof the plywood.Maybe I'm missing something? Measuring error?Thanks,John--------JohnRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: flying and glider manual
Pietenpol-List: Re: flying and glider manual
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Skip; I just sent you some snapshots of what I think you were looking for out ofthe 1032 F&GM, but let me know if that wasn't it. I have the other volumesas well.The email will come from my work address, ozuniga(at)marquess.com .--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power, 72x36 Culver propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: flying and glider manual
Skip; I just sent you some snapshots of what I think you were looking for out ofthe 1032 F&GM, but let me know if that wasn't it. I have the other volumesas well.The email will come from my work address, ozuniga(at)marquess.com .--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power, 72x36 Culver propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: flying and glider manual
Pietenpol-List: Re: flying and glider manual
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Will this work for you, Skip?Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/imag ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: flying and glider manual
Will this work for you, Skip?Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/imag ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: flying and glider manual
Pietenpol-List: Re: Lower forward seat back
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Another illustration.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/imag ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Lower forward seat back
Another illustration.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/imag ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Lower forward seat back
Pietenpol-List: Re: Lower forward seat back
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
John;Don't notch the ash crossmember. The ends of the "V" sticks get epoxied to the top of the ash member and the plywood seat back attaches to them and carries on down past the ash to the plywood floor. The drawing at the bottom of Sheet 1 shows the plywood the same length as the V sticks, but it's got to be longer so it can get glued and nailed to the back edge of the ash. Here's a crude picture: http://flysquirrel.net/piets/stick/stick4.jpg . If you've already prefabricated the seat back V sticks and attached the plywood, all is not lost... you can just cut a strip of plywood (doubler) to overlap the seat back plywood and the ash member to attach the two. They really do need to be attached. I found that during entries and exits, particularly with heavy boots on, your boots can catch the plywood when sticking them through the cutouts for your feet, and this pushes the seat back forward. Although the V sticks resist that, the corners of the plywood need something to keep its bottom edge from getting shoved forward. You could also do it by gluing two short square sticks on top of the ash crossmember on the *forward* side of the plywood, something to attach corners of the bottom edge of the seat back to.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power, 72x36 Culver propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Lower forward seat back
John;Don't notch the ash crossmember. The ends of the "V" sticks get epoxied to the top of the ash member and the plywood seat back attaches to them and carries on down past the ash to the plywood floor. The drawing at the bottom of Sheet 1 shows the plywood the same length as the V sticks, but it's got to be longer so it can get glued and nailed to the back edge of the ash. Here's a crude picture: http://flysquirrel.net/piets/stick/stick4.jpg . If you've already prefabricated the seat back V sticks and attached the plywood, all is not lost... you can just cut a strip of plywood (doubler) to overlap the seat back plywood and the ash member to attach the two. They really do need to be attached. I found that during entries and exits, particularly with heavy boots on, your boots can catch the plywood when sticking them through the cutouts for your feet, and this pushes the seat back forward. Although the V sticks resist that, the corners of the plywood need something to keep its bottom edge from getting shoved forward. You could also do it by gluing two short square sticks on top of the ash crossmember on the *forward* side of the plywood, something to attach corners of the bottom edge of the seat back to.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power, 72x36 Culver propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Lower forward seat back
Original Posted By: Michael Cuy
Ok. I've had a look at the plans and I see what you're talking about. Don't notchthe ash cross member. It will reduce the strength of the ash piece and notprovide any benefit. If you've already glued and nailed the spruce to theplywood it shouldn't be too difficult to trim off the bottom 1 inch of the spruceparts. When I built mine, I put the spruce diagonals on the back side ofthe plywood, so it wasn't an issue for my seat back.Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Ok. I've had a look at the plans and I see what you're talking about. Don't notchthe ash cross member. It will reduce the strength of the ash piece and notprovide any benefit. If you've already glued and nailed the spruce to theplywood it shouldn't be too difficult to trim off the bottom 1 inch of the spruceparts. When I built mine, I put the spruce diagonals on the back side ofthe plywood, so it wasn't an issue for my seat back.Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Lower forward seat back
Original Posted By: "skipgadd(at)earthlink.net"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Lower forward seat backHi John,There is no need to notch the ash cross members. I can see where the planswould lead you to believe this but no need.Mike C.Ohio=8B=8B________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2017 08:58:37 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Lower forward seat backHi John,There is no need to notch the ash cross members. I can see where the planswould lead you to believe this but no need.Mike C.Ohio=8B=8B________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2017 08:58:37 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: flying and glider manual
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I love the fact that this workshop has a forge and an anvil for smithingwork. Not too many shops today have these tools and not too many people knowhow to use them (including me)My wife's grandfather was a blacksmith and she has his complete shop instorage. I still think one day I will set it up to see if I can do more thanjust get a lot of blisters.Barry NX976BP-----Original Message-----
I love the fact that this workshop has a forge and an anvil for smithingwork. Not too many shops today have these tools and not too many people knowhow to use them (including me)My wife's grandfather was a blacksmith and she has his complete shop instorage. I still think one day I will set it up to see if I can do more thanjust get a lot of blisters.Barry NX976BP-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Lower forward seat back
Original Posted By: "Clif Dawson"
Thank you everyone. It made no sense to me to cut into an important piece of wood(the ash), so I needed to check (I'll still shave it to 3/4" at ends). I'lljust trim off the lower inch of the V spruce. Hopefully, my location of the cutoutin the plywood is OK (it's according to plans). I'll just fix that downthe road if it's a problem.Thank you Mike for the drawings.Thanks again!John--------JohnRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Thank you everyone. It made no sense to me to cut into an important piece of wood(the ash), so I needed to check (I'll still shave it to 3/4" at ends). I'lljust trim off the lower inch of the V spruce. Hopefully, my location of the cutoutin the plywood is OK (it's according to plans). I'll just fix that downthe road if it's a problem.Thank you Mike for the drawings.Thanks again!John--------JohnRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Long fuselage and Model A
Original Posted By: "Vincent Dunn"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Stearman center sectionIn the back ground is a stack of spars________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Long fuselage and Model A
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Stearman center sectionIn the back ground is a stack of spars________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Long fuselage and Model A
Pietenpol-List: Re: Long fuselage and Model A
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Oscar,Thanks for the Long history of CG calculations. But what is the answer to the questionposed at the end? "So what would BP do if he made the fuselage 172.375 inches long (a whopping 9.375inches longer) and moved the rear seat back aft yet another 76.25 -72.25 or4 inches?"I want to know since I'm also building the 172 3/8" fuselage per plans purchasedfrom Doc Mosier. How far aft of the firewall should the axle be? Thanks. Here'sa pix of the plans....--------Vincent DunnSalem Oregonvincentkdunn(at)yahoo.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/long ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Long fuselage and Model A
Oscar,Thanks for the Long history of CG calculations. But what is the answer to the questionposed at the end? "So what would BP do if he made the fuselage 172.375 inches long (a whopping 9.375inches longer) and moved the rear seat back aft yet another 76.25 -72.25 or4 inches?"I want to know since I'm also building the 172 3/8" fuselage per plans purchasedfrom Doc Mosier. How far aft of the firewall should the axle be? Thanks. Here'sa pix of the plans....--------Vincent DunnSalem Oregonvincentkdunn(at)yahoo.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/long ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Long fuselage and Model A
Pietenpol-List: Re: West Coast Piet
Original Posted By: "Catdesigns"
Vincent: the answer is, "it depends" ;o) There is an excellent multi-part writeupon the placement of the axle that was written up by William Wynne after extensiveweighing, measuring, and analysis of various Air Campers, and I'll needto go back and re-read it because the conclusions were quite definite. Thething about all of this is that if you do it right, you'll only have to do itone time and you'll have a sound basis for setting it up the way you decide to.Let me go back through the articles and see if I can boil it down to your case.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power, 72x36 Culver propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: West Coast Piet
Vincent: the answer is, "it depends" ;o) There is an excellent multi-part writeupon the placement of the axle that was written up by William Wynne after extensiveweighing, measuring, and analysis of various Air Campers, and I'll needto go back and re-read it because the conclusions were quite definite. Thething about all of this is that if you do it right, you'll only have to do itone time and you'll have a sound basis for setting it up the way you decide to.Let me go back through the articles and see if I can boil it down to your case.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power, 72x36 Culver propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: West Coast Piet
Original Posted By: "M W Stanley"
Phew, I'm glad it is working again. Not sure what was happening. Typically itonly gets screwed up when try to fix things but this time I did nothing.Chris--------ChrisSacramento, CAWestCoastPiet.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Phew, I'm glad it is working again. Not sure what was happening. Typically itonly gets screwed up when try to fix things but this time I did nothing.Chris--------ChrisSacramento, CAWestCoastPiet.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: West Coast Piet
Original Posted By: "Catdesigns"
Hi Chris,I have not had any problems accessing the site on the web (great site by the way!), but when I go to it on, (I'll duck when I say this....) Facebook....I can only see the West Coast Piet logo, your 'friends' list (I'm also on your 'friends' list) and a post that I sent to you back in December 2016.I'm just wondering if other people can see more on the FB page or if it is a problem on my end.Thanks and keep up the great job!!CheersMark StanleyJapan--------------------------------------------------
Hi Chris,I have not had any problems accessing the site on the web (great site by the way!), but when I go to it on, (I'll duck when I say this....) Facebook....I can only see the West Coast Piet logo, your 'friends' list (I'm also on your 'friends' list) and a post that I sent to you back in December 2016.I'm just wondering if other people can see more on the FB page or if it is a problem on my end.Thanks and keep up the great job!!CheersMark StanleyJapan--------------------------------------------------
Pietenpol-List: Re: Long fuselage and Model A
Original Posted By: "(null) raykrause"
About the best advice I could come up with after an exhaustive study. http://www.westcoastpiet.com/wood_gear_ ... is.htmGoes along nicely with WW advice. Chris--------ChrisSacramento, CAWestCoastPiet.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
About the best advice I could come up with after an exhaustive study. http://www.westcoastpiet.com/wood_gear_ ... is.htmGoes along nicely with WW advice. Chris--------ChrisSacramento, CAWestCoastPiet.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: West Coast Piet
Original Posted By:> "Catdesigns"
Chris,I agree completely!!!!Ray KrauseSent from my iPad> On Jan 31, 2017, at 6:54 PM, Chris Tracy wrote:> > Hey Mark,> > You don't see anything because nothing is there. I personally hate Facebook. I think it is sad that the pietenpol traffic has gone there because you can't archive or search or even follow what is going on. It is sad that lots of good valuable stuff gets lost. > > Personally, I would have been lost without the search function on this list.> > Chris> > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android> > On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 2:50 AM, M W Stanley> wrote:> > Hi Chris,> > I have not had any problems accessing the site on the web (great site by the > way!), but when I go to it on, (I'll duck when I say this....) Facebook....I > can only see the West Coast Piet logo, your 'friends' list (I'm also on your > 'friends' list) and a post that I sent to you back in December 2016.> I'm just wondering if other people can see more on the FB page or if it is a > problem on my end.> > Thanks and keep up the great job!!> > Cheers> Mark Stanley> Japan> > --------------------------------------------------
Chris,I agree completely!!!!Ray KrauseSent from my iPad> On Jan 31, 2017, at 6:54 PM, Chris Tracy wrote:> > Hey Mark,> > You don't see anything because nothing is there. I personally hate Facebook. I think it is sad that the pietenpol traffic has gone there because you can't archive or search or even follow what is going on. It is sad that lots of good valuable stuff gets lost. > > Personally, I would have been lost without the search function on this list.> > Chris> > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android> > On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 2:50 AM, M W Stanley> wrote:> > Hi Chris,> > I have not had any problems accessing the site on the web (great site by the > way!), but when I go to it on, (I'll duck when I say this....) Facebook....I > can only see the West Coast Piet logo, your 'friends' list (I'm also on your > 'friends' list) and a post that I sent to you back in December 2016.> I'm just wondering if other people can see more on the FB page or if it is a > problem on my end.> > Thanks and keep up the great job!!> > Cheers> Mark Stanley> Japan> > --------------------------------------------------