Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
I just read my last post.The tone seems a bit harsh.That wasn't my intent.My apologies, Steve.BCRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Jack's new Piet
Pietenpol-List: Jack's new Piet
Original Posted By: "Gary Boothe"
Didn't want to post this in response to Jack Fastnaught's question regarding enginetemperatures, since I have no useful information to offer in that regard,so here's a new thread.Beautiful work, Jack. Congratulations!Jack Phillips now has a really good idea what his Piet would look like with a ModelA instead of the A-65. "Slight resemblance."More photos, please.Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/nx14 ... __________
Didn't want to post this in response to Jack Fastnaught's question regarding enginetemperatures, since I have no useful information to offer in that regard,so here's a new thread.Beautiful work, Jack. Congratulations!Jack Phillips now has a really good idea what his Piet would look like with a ModelA instead of the A-65. "Slight resemblance."More photos, please.Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/nx14 ... __________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Jack's new Piet
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Mike Groah, too. 3 beautiful Piets, all similar, but different somehow...ah,yes, I can see it now, ...(someone got a finish?)Gary BootheNX308MB-----Original Message-----
Mike Groah, too. 3 beautiful Piets, all similar, but different somehow...ah,yes, I can see it now, ...(someone got a finish?)Gary BootheNX308MB-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Jack's new Piet
Original Posted By: "Andy Garrett"
Piets flew with Corvairs for 48 years or so before the arrival of the 5th bearing.The search function reveals that some have hypothesized that the later higherperformance applications of the Corvair exposed a weakness that the 5th bearingcould strengthen--a weakness rarely if ever experienced in Piets.As a $16 per hour hospital security officer trying to 'get into the arena' -SterlingHayden, and build the airframe which was designed for the 'working man',a few grand for a 5th bearing is steep. Corvairs earned their coveted reputations in Piets, without 5th bearings. Do Ineed one? Will my TBO be cut in half without one? Will I be forever branded asa 'corner-cutter' in this community? Will I be 'that guy' when I visit Brodhead?Will others snicker behind my back? Does a 4-bearing engine built today representa bad choice in homebuilding?I just don't want to make a fool of myself as I build an airplane that I can affordwith my resources.--------Andy Garrett'General Purpose Creative Dude'Haysville, KansasRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jack's new Piet
Piets flew with Corvairs for 48 years or so before the arrival of the 5th bearing.The search function reveals that some have hypothesized that the later higherperformance applications of the Corvair exposed a weakness that the 5th bearingcould strengthen--a weakness rarely if ever experienced in Piets.As a $16 per hour hospital security officer trying to 'get into the arena' -SterlingHayden, and build the airframe which was designed for the 'working man',a few grand for a 5th bearing is steep. Corvairs earned their coveted reputations in Piets, without 5th bearings. Do Ineed one? Will my TBO be cut in half without one? Will I be forever branded asa 'corner-cutter' in this community? Will I be 'that guy' when I visit Brodhead?Will others snicker behind my back? Does a 4-bearing engine built today representa bad choice in homebuilding?I just don't want to make a fool of myself as I build an airplane that I can affordwith my resources.--------Andy Garrett'General Purpose Creative Dude'Haysville, KansasRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jack's new Piet
Pietenpol-List: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
Original Posted By: "Andy Garrett"
Congratulations Jack on a beautiful bird! Absolutely gorgeous work!!I don't have much to add as you start chasing high temps, except this shortlist:1. Could it still be tight? 10 hrs of ground running isn'tnecessarily a lot on a Ford. How tight is the prop after she's run for awhile.2. A slight pressure relief valve in the rad cap can help keep tempsdown a few degrees, but not the difference between boiling over and cool.(cant' remember exactly, 2-3lbs maybe?)3. Timing is right?4. I didn't notice but be sure you have a steam relief tube from the"front" of the head back to the rad. This can lead to pockets of steamcoming up into the system and shooting out the cap every few minutes.5. I assume the gauge is correct since she was steamin'6. Water can run a bit cooler than coolant7. Is there a thermostat? Confirm it works in boiling waterI'm sure I'm missing some things, but that's what I remember from when I wasworking on my Ford.Good luck, send videos of flying days!!Douwe________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
Congratulations Jack on a beautiful bird! Absolutely gorgeous work!!I don't have much to add as you start chasing high temps, except this shortlist:1. Could it still be tight? 10 hrs of ground running isn'tnecessarily a lot on a Ford. How tight is the prop after she's run for awhile.2. A slight pressure relief valve in the rad cap can help keep tempsdown a few degrees, but not the difference between boiling over and cool.(cant' remember exactly, 2-3lbs maybe?)3. Timing is right?4. I didn't notice but be sure you have a steam relief tube from the"front" of the head back to the rad. This can lead to pockets of steamcoming up into the system and shooting out the cap every few minutes.5. I assume the gauge is correct since she was steamin'6. Water can run a bit cooler than coolant7. Is there a thermostat? Confirm it works in boiling waterI'm sure I'm missing some things, but that's what I remember from when I wasworking on my Ford.Good luck, send videos of flying days!!Douwe________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
Pietenpol-List: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
Original Posted By: "jarheadpilot82"
Andy, I will save time and speak plainly: Unless you have a very serious approach change,your never going to make it in aircraft building. Your Comment: I just have certain 'devices' I use to ferret out the informationand passionate opinions that I seek." Is pretty insulting to say the least. As man who writes as passionately as youdo, I find this comment incredible. All the same, I apologize. I am not here tohave people "ferret out" things. I am here to share what I know. The very conceptthat you honestly think that knowing little or nothing about planes, youcan spark an internet discussion between people you have never met, and thenon the basis or reading a few hundred words, suddenly you are qualified to evaluatethe mechanical integrity, the operational history, the builder issues anddetails of each option. That my friend, is a total joke. Yet after reading afew hundred of my words, you have made an assessment of my "mechanical integrity",my "operational history" and decided that public ridicule and embarrassmentwas the direction to take. You've decided that I am ignorance and declaredme unfit with no hope of success. Moreover, you've done it in front of otherswho obviously admire you, who may have better understood my cultural and educationbias and chosen to help me as they could.In 25 years I have personally known500 people who have finished a homebuilt, maybe 180 of them working on aplans built design that was their first plane. They had a common characteristic:They all found 2 or 3 successfully builders of the same design, and followedtheir lead. They didn't 'vet' or screen these people and evaluate their integrity,because they didn't have the expertise to do so. They just looked at theirsuccess, and used it as a pattern. That is vetting sir. They just correctlyassumed that they would learn why these successful builders did what they didalong the way. Such an assumption is also a form of vetting. They didn't blindlyfollow anyone, but they didn't question peoples decisions on subjects theyreally didn't know anything about yet. How else do we understand a person decisionunless we question why it was made--explore the contributing factors?.This is a logical approach. To not do so IS blindly following. Your statementis unclear! at best--contradictory at worst. I also have met, in person easily more than 10,000 peoplewho told me that they were absolutely personally committed to successfullybuilding their plane, and all of these people failed. Failed to do what sir?Fly a plane they completed? I recently met a man in his eighties who had justcompleted the plane he knew he would never fly. Did he fail? What of those builderswith a 20 year old half built aircraft in their garage which reminds themof all the great nights working with their father? Having enjoyed and learnedfrom what they accomplished, did they too fail by your standards? They alsohad a common characteristic: They thought just like you. Again, a few hundredwords, and you know how I think? Presumptuous.My experience says that people very rarely change their approach, no matter whatthey say. Go ahead, take the next 10 years of your spare time and all your extramoney and try to prove that you are the 1 in 10,000 guy who is going to makethe "start arguments, and evaluate from no experience" process work. It wasnot my intention to start an argument. I appologize again Mr. Wynne. Good luckwith that. Your life, your choice, your approach. -ww.I am truly sorry for any offense. It was my desire to spend many years here asI worked through and enjoyed my build. Obviously, I will find a different engineplatform to build, as you clearly have no patience for my kind. I guess themoney I've spent with your company thus far was wasted. I fear that I will alsohave to become a mere lurker here on the forums, trying to absorb what I canthrough passive means. Perhaps a few will help me through PMs.You, the leading expert on Corvairs, an authority on Pietenpols, and an ambassadorin the homebuilding world have read a couple hundred of my words and passedjudgment. I have been weighed, measured, and found wanting..., by you. Wherea rational man recognizing his status in this community would have sent me privatemessage to coach me on my approach if he objected, you chose public shamingand humiliation. I find your attitude to be unbecoming a man positioned toinfluence so many. Mentorship does not seem to suit you on this day.I consider the matter closed. Best to you and yours.--------Andy Garrett'General Purpose Creative Dude'Haysville, KansasRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
Andy, I will save time and speak plainly: Unless you have a very serious approach change,your never going to make it in aircraft building. Your Comment: I just have certain 'devices' I use to ferret out the informationand passionate opinions that I seek." Is pretty insulting to say the least. As man who writes as passionately as youdo, I find this comment incredible. All the same, I apologize. I am not here tohave people "ferret out" things. I am here to share what I know. The very conceptthat you honestly think that knowing little or nothing about planes, youcan spark an internet discussion between people you have never met, and thenon the basis or reading a few hundred words, suddenly you are qualified to evaluatethe mechanical integrity, the operational history, the builder issues anddetails of each option. That my friend, is a total joke. Yet after reading afew hundred of my words, you have made an assessment of my "mechanical integrity",my "operational history" and decided that public ridicule and embarrassmentwas the direction to take. You've decided that I am ignorance and declaredme unfit with no hope of success. Moreover, you've done it in front of otherswho obviously admire you, who may have better understood my cultural and educationbias and chosen to help me as they could.In 25 years I have personally known500 people who have finished a homebuilt, maybe 180 of them working on aplans built design that was their first plane. They had a common characteristic:They all found 2 or 3 successfully builders of the same design, and followedtheir lead. They didn't 'vet' or screen these people and evaluate their integrity,because they didn't have the expertise to do so. They just looked at theirsuccess, and used it as a pattern. That is vetting sir. They just correctlyassumed that they would learn why these successful builders did what they didalong the way. Such an assumption is also a form of vetting. They didn't blindlyfollow anyone, but they didn't question peoples decisions on subjects theyreally didn't know anything about yet. How else do we understand a person decisionunless we question why it was made--explore the contributing factors?.This is a logical approach. To not do so IS blindly following. Your statementis unclear! at best--contradictory at worst. I also have met, in person easily more than 10,000 peoplewho told me that they were absolutely personally committed to successfullybuilding their plane, and all of these people failed. Failed to do what sir?Fly a plane they completed? I recently met a man in his eighties who had justcompleted the plane he knew he would never fly. Did he fail? What of those builderswith a 20 year old half built aircraft in their garage which reminds themof all the great nights working with their father? Having enjoyed and learnedfrom what they accomplished, did they too fail by your standards? They alsohad a common characteristic: They thought just like you. Again, a few hundredwords, and you know how I think? Presumptuous.My experience says that people very rarely change their approach, no matter whatthey say. Go ahead, take the next 10 years of your spare time and all your extramoney and try to prove that you are the 1 in 10,000 guy who is going to makethe "start arguments, and evaluate from no experience" process work. It wasnot my intention to start an argument. I appologize again Mr. Wynne. Good luckwith that. Your life, your choice, your approach. -ww.I am truly sorry for any offense. It was my desire to spend many years here asI worked through and enjoyed my build. Obviously, I will find a different engineplatform to build, as you clearly have no patience for my kind. I guess themoney I've spent with your company thus far was wasted. I fear that I will alsohave to become a mere lurker here on the forums, trying to absorb what I canthrough passive means. Perhaps a few will help me through PMs.You, the leading expert on Corvairs, an authority on Pietenpols, and an ambassadorin the homebuilding world have read a couple hundred of my words and passedjudgment. I have been weighed, measured, and found wanting..., by you. Wherea rational man recognizing his status in this community would have sent me privatemessage to coach me on my approach if he objected, you chose public shamingand humiliation. I find your attitude to be unbecoming a man positioned toinfluence so many. Mentorship does not seem to suit you on this day.I consider the matter closed. Best to you and yours.--------Andy Garrett'General Purpose Creative Dude'Haysville, KansasRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
Re: Pietenpol-List: Jack's new Piet
Original Posted By: Gary Boothe
Douwe,Thanks for the input. Several things you include I haven't checked yet.Another Ford Pieter has suggested about 20 hours to break in. His took about 18 before it settled down. Mine seems pretty loose but maybe not enough. You thoughts?JackSent from my iPad> On Mar 19, 2015, at 6:11 PM, Douwe Blumberg wrote:> > Congratulations Jack on a beautiful bird! Absolutely gorgeous work!!> > I don=99t have much to add as you start chasing high temps, except this short list:> > 1. Could it still be tight? 10 hrs of ground running isn=99t necessarily a lot on a Ford. How tight is the prop after she=99s run for a while.> 2. A slight pressure relief valve in the rad cap can help keep temps down a few degrees, but not the difference between boiling over and cool. (cant=99 remember exactly, 2-3lbs maybe?)> 3. Timing is right?> 4. I didn=99t notice but be sure you have a steam relief tube from the =9Cfront=9D of the head back to the rad. This can lead to pockets of steam coming up into the system and shooting out the cap every few minutes.> 5. I assume the gauge is correct since she was steamin=99> 6. Water can run a bit cooler than coolant> 7. Is there a thermostat? Confirm it works in boiling water> > I=99m sure I=99m missing some things, but that=99s what I remember from when I was working on my Ford.> > Good luck, send videos of flying days!!> > Douwe> > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> ________________________________________________________________________________
Douwe,Thanks for the input. Several things you include I haven't checked yet.Another Ford Pieter has suggested about 20 hours to break in. His took about 18 before it settled down. Mine seems pretty loose but maybe not enough. You thoughts?JackSent from my iPad> On Mar 19, 2015, at 6:11 PM, Douwe Blumberg wrote:> > Congratulations Jack on a beautiful bird! Absolutely gorgeous work!!> > I don=99t have much to add as you start chasing high temps, except this short list:> > 1. Could it still be tight? 10 hrs of ground running isn=99t necessarily a lot on a Ford. How tight is the prop after she=99s run for a while.> 2. A slight pressure relief valve in the rad cap can help keep temps down a few degrees, but not the difference between boiling over and cool. (cant=99 remember exactly, 2-3lbs maybe?)> 3. Timing is right?> 4. I didn=99t notice but be sure you have a steam relief tube from the =9Cfront=9D of the head back to the rad. This can lead to pockets of steam coming up into the system and shooting out the cap every few minutes.> 5. I assume the gauge is correct since she was steamin=99> 6. Water can run a bit cooler than coolant> 7. Is there a thermostat? Confirm it works in boiling water> > I=99m sure I=99m missing some things, but that=99s what I remember from when I was working on my Ford.> > Good luck, send videos of flying days!!> > Douwe> > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Jack's new Piet
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Good morning All,I understood that the day of the flight started in Socorro New Mexico. I haveflown that route and know that you must get to about 8000 feet to clear the mountainsto the east. That is what I was referring to about the rough terrain.I don't know at what point the engine started running rough but just wantedto make comment that he did good to get it down at an airport. We all know thatwith a complete engine failure we won't be gliding very far under the bestof conditions. That is all I meant. I made the first flight of the plane for these guys and I never felt the gear wastoo far back. Since I have flown the plane, the owners changed from a rudderbar and heel brakes to rudder pedals and toe brakes. I am sure the toe brakesadded to the ability to apply more braking power then what was needed at thetime of that landing. Hard to say since I was not there. As Oscar mentioned. Farm fields can put planes on their back as well. It is never just one thing that causes an accident. There is usually a chain ofevents that cause an accident or incident. Leave out just one of the linksand the event probably would not have happened. I am just happy that there were no injury's and with a small amount of work, theyare able to fly again. Yes, there are take away's that can be learned from each and every event. Whetherit is a Piet or a Cessna 172 there is usually something to learn. Carry on everyone, Cheers,--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jack's new Piet
Good morning All,I understood that the day of the flight started in Socorro New Mexico. I haveflown that route and know that you must get to about 8000 feet to clear the mountainsto the east. That is what I was referring to about the rough terrain.I don't know at what point the engine started running rough but just wantedto make comment that he did good to get it down at an airport. We all know thatwith a complete engine failure we won't be gliding very far under the bestof conditions. That is all I meant. I made the first flight of the plane for these guys and I never felt the gear wastoo far back. Since I have flown the plane, the owners changed from a rudderbar and heel brakes to rudder pedals and toe brakes. I am sure the toe brakesadded to the ability to apply more braking power then what was needed at thetime of that landing. Hard to say since I was not there. As Oscar mentioned. Farm fields can put planes on their back as well. It is never just one thing that causes an accident. There is usually a chain ofevents that cause an accident or incident. Leave out just one of the linksand the event probably would not have happened. I am just happy that there were no injury's and with a small amount of work, theyare able to fly again. Yes, there are take away's that can be learned from each and every event. Whetherit is a Piet or a Cessna 172 there is usually something to learn. Carry on everyone, Cheers,--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jack's new Piet
Pietenpol-List: Re: Jack's new Piet
Original Posted By: "bender"
Jack,A similar rule we used to say was "it's better to be on the ground wishin' youwere flyin', than to be flyin' wishin' you were on the ground."--------Semper Fi,Terry HandAthens, GARead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jack's new Piet
Jack,A similar rule we used to say was "it's better to be on the ground wishin' youwere flyin', than to be flyin' wishin' you were on the ground."--------Semper Fi,Terry HandAthens, GARead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jack's new Piet
Pietenpol-List: Re: Jack's new Piet
Original Posted By: "Jeff Boatright"
Great video.got lost in it sitting here at workJeff FaithRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jack's new Piet
Great video.got lost in it sitting here at workJeff FaithRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jack's new Piet
Pietenpol-List: Re: Jack's new Piet
Original Posted By: "AircamperN11MS"
For a Steel tube fuselage I would gas weld, lower cost for the welding setup andeasier for a beginner to learn.I would suggest you look at a DVD from TM Technologies, AKA: Kent White. He hasa great video on 4130 Airframe Construction, plus you can rent the DVD's too.He also has great products that do work for aircraft building. I love the MecoTorch he has for welding Fuselages and Aluminum brazing & welding fuel tanks,sheet metal and such. He DVD's are very educational, will worth the time towatch.Just a miss conception here, Piper, Taylorcraft, & Boeing did use 1020 tubing butonly in the up rights and diagonal bracing, basically in low load areas. Allthe longerons were 4130 and any high load tubes were too e.g. wing support structures,landing gears, motor mounts, etc.I say ... do it.My 5 worth,WF2--------Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jack's new Piet
For a Steel tube fuselage I would gas weld, lower cost for the welding setup andeasier for a beginner to learn.I would suggest you look at a DVD from TM Technologies, AKA: Kent White. He hasa great video on 4130 Airframe Construction, plus you can rent the DVD's too.He also has great products that do work for aircraft building. I love the MecoTorch he has for welding Fuselages and Aluminum brazing & welding fuel tanks,sheet metal and such. He DVD's are very educational, will worth the time towatch.Just a miss conception here, Piper, Taylorcraft, & Boeing did use 1020 tubing butonly in the up rights and diagonal bracing, basically in low load areas. Allthe longerons were 4130 and any high load tubes were too e.g. wing support structures,landing gears, motor mounts, etc.I say ... do it.My 5 worth,WF2--------Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jack's new Piet