Speed Queen water pump? Model A engine.

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John B
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Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:52 am

Speed Queen water pump? Model A engine.

Post by John B »

Fellow builders/operators:

Decades ago, there was talk of using a Speed Queen water drain pump on the Model A powered Pietenpol aircraft, as an engine coolant pump. These pumps are still available, New Old Stock, and they are quite light, as they are made of aluminum. Is anyone using this set-up? What water pumps are being used by the successful Model A operators?
Thank you.
John Bergeson
Rhome, Texas
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taildrags
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Re: Speed Queen water pump? Model A engine.

Post by taildrags »

John; it sounds like you've found a source for those pumps. By any chance have you seen any specifications for them? In particular, flowrate that could be compared to the Ford A pump, probably gallons/minute at a certain RPM or graphed by flowrate across a range of speeds?

I don't fly a water-cooled engine, but I'm a mechanical engineer and I'm interested in the pumping details of the Ford pump vs. the Speed Queen.

Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC, A75 power
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Richard Roller
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Location: Olathe, Ks.

Re: Speed Queen water pump? Model A engine.

Post by Richard Roller »

I've seen several installations with the washer pump. I'll look ar my pictures and see if I have any of the washer pump installed.
John Bergeson
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Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:31 am

Re: Speed Queen water pump? Model A engine.

Post by John Bergeson »

Oscar-The Speed Queen drain pumps, when demonstrated via YouTube, have a very impressive flow. How much flow is needed? This debate has been on-going for generations with the Flathead Ford operators. 'Seems like "some, but not too much" is the correct amount of flow. Richard, I'd love to see any pictures of these pumps and their mounting systems.
Thank you!
John b
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taildrags
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Re: Speed Queen water pump? Model A engine.

Post by taildrags »

Engineers eat numbers for lunch. We gotta have numbers. Here's a fictitious numbers exercise: a water-cooled 4-stroke that puts out 40 hp to the shaft at rated RPM (whatever that RPM is). Let's assume that the combustion efficiency of the engine is 40% and the other 60% is lost as heat. Let's further assume that of the 60% that's lost, half of it goes out the exhaust stacks as hot products of combustion and the other half heats up the head, block, and oil and needs to be removed by the engine coolant for the engine to stabilize at optimum operating temperature. For simplicity, let's assume that the coolant is water, with a specific heat of 1 Btu/lb-*F. So we've got half of 60 wasted horsepower heating up the head and block, or 30 HP, or 1272 Btu/minute, of heat that the coolant has to carry to the radiator to be removed.

Now let's say that the thermostat on the engine opens at 180F and the engine returns the coolant at 220F, for a temperature difference of 40F across the radiator. So we're trying to figure out how many pounds of coolant per minute does the water pump need to pump to keep the engine happy and the coolant from getting too hot. The heat transfer formula states that the amount of heat transferred is equal to the mass flow rate (the value we're looking for) times the specific heat, times the temperature difference. Getting the value we're looking for on one side of the equation and everything else on the other side, we get

mass flow rate = what we're looking for = the amount of heat transferred / (the specific heat times the temperature difference)
So then, what we're looking for = (1272 Btu/minute) / [(1 Btu/lb-*F) x (40*F)]
And so finally, what we're looking for = (1272 / 40) lb/minute = 31.8 lb/minute

We know that water at 200F weighs right at 8 lbs/gallon, so at steady state, the water pump will be pumping pert' near 4 GPM. All of this will change once actual parameters for an actual engine are plugged in, but the principle is the same. Does 4 GPM sound anything even vaguely like what a Speed Queen water pump will discharge at the speed where it normally operates?

-Oscar
John B
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Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:52 am

Re: Speed Queen water pump? Model A engine.

Post by John B »

Oscar-
One would need to measure the flow rate of one of these pumps in actual use on a wringer washer. One would also need to know the RPM of the pump. If the wash tub contains twenty gallons, a user would likely expect to empty the tub into the nearest sink/drain/ditch in less than five minutes?
The drain pump on these wringer washers was an option. They allowed water to be pumped uphill and overboard, into a sink, via an attached hose. Without the drain pump option, the user simply drained the wash water via gravity, using a hose. (Was the washer used on the back porch? Was a garden nearby?) Has anyone seen a wringer washer in operation?
John B
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Richard Roller
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Re: Speed Queen water pump? Model A engine.

Post by Richard Roller »

John, I'm sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I've been through the digital pictures I have of Brodhead and have found none that would help you. I know I've taken some, but they must be on film and I have no idea where they might be. I did find some on the West Coast Piet site just by browsing. I'm not sure they were washing machine pumps, but they were side mounted.
piet pump1.jpg
piet pump2.jpg
piet pump3.jpg
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