Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By: "Robert Haines"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: BrakesBrakes on a Pietenpol? HOW. The original had a rudder bar as no brakes were required. The Last Original had a tail wheel. Did it have brakes, toe or heel?These are questions I've tried all these rainy days to answer without final resolvement. Almost gave up on the whole project yesterday. I have narrowed it down to two options: 1. Build rudder pedals with hinged toe devices to exert pressure on the Matco cyl mounted vertically behind with attached resevoir.2. Weld an extention on the rudder bar and from it have a pivoting toe action to activate the cyl. I don't know. Any of you who have solved this one please don't keep it to yourself. I have Cessna wheel and brakes (Cleveland).Corky________________________________________________________________________________
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Pietenpol-List: welding

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Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
I have a MIG welder that I plan to use but now I'm a bit concerned. Why hasn't MIG welding seen as much success as TIG or OxyA?Robert HainesMurphysboro, Illinois________________________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 10:09:06 -0500
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Re: Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By: "William C. Beerman"
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Re: Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By: "STOCKBERGER,RANDY (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: BrakesBill,Your suggestion is what I'm looking for. I'd appreciate some pics if it would not be too much trouble;C M Corbett625 Pierremont RdShreveport, La 71106________________________________________________________________________________
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Re: Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By: "Mike Bell"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: BrakesSorry Chris,The largest Piano Wire Gauge is #25 , Dia .059 and the smallest I had is.029.If you can use any of what I have you are welcome to it.Corky________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brakes
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Re: Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By: "walter evans"
Brakes on a Pietenpol? HOW"I have heel brakes. Goodyear mech brakes off a Luscomb.Mike B Piet N 687MB ( Mr Sam )________________________________________________________________________________
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Re: Pietenpol-List: Welding or Brazing

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Original Posted By:
---------------------------------------------------------- Original Message -----
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Re: Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By:
I haven't heard this idea discussed before, think about it , maybe it willwork. I ruled out the "bicycle " brake thing on the stick because with allthe cables dropping down the stick interfering with the elevator pulleysworry me.How about this....bicycle handlebar type actuators laying flat under theinst. panel. with the pivot point away from each other and the tips commingtogether within about 1/2" under the panel, pull toward you to activate.Could pull both tips for even braking or separately by working thefingertips. Seems to work out sequence wise, cause as soon as you setdown, your throttle hand becomes free. Run up is good, Hold the brakes withright, throttle up with left, left to carb heat then on to mags, and back.Only thing would be hairy would be holding one to turn, holding the stickback and the throttle.Think about it.walt---------------------------------------------------------- Original Message -----
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Re: Pietenpol-List: welding

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Original Posted By: "walter evans"
Robert Haines asked:> I have a MIG welder that I plan to use but now I'm a bit concerned. Why > hasn't MIG welding seen as much success as TIG or OxyA?Short answer: Because it's easy to make a MIG weld thatlooks good but has little or no penetration, and therefore no strength, and because the narrow heat-affected zoneencourages crack formation. Companies like Skystar,which MIG their airframes and omit a post-weld heating,have a lot of practice at getting it right. They also tend tohave a lot of reports of cracking. On the other hand, thePitts has been MIG welded for years, and I've never heardthat it has has a problem. No idea what they do different,and finding out is high on my list of things to do -- butstrictly as a matter of curiosity. Personally, I wouldn'teven think about MIG for anything but fast tacking of anairframe that would later be final-welded with gas or TIG.Maybe attaching tabs for mounting stringers and the like.To find the long answer, check Deja News for welding threadin rec.aviation.homebuilt and sci.engr.joining.welding. Thisdiscussion has been had frequently in both places.For the official word, see the latest revision of AC43.13a,"Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices, AircraftInspection and Repair," which gives the FAA's position onthis sort of thing. It's available here on the Net, though I don'thave the URL handy.Finally, go to the Biplane Hangar mailing list archives athttp://gf24.de/biplane/ . There are a number of doc filescontaining list messages on a variety of topics. One ofthem gives what's probably the best practical discussionI've seen of aircraft welding.As for post-weld heating, you'll find that very large can ofworms is alive and wriggling. I don't know anywhereenough to resolve i myself, but my casual observationhas been that the more people know about metallurgy,the less likely they are to recommend it. For a goodsummary of the "don't do it" argument, see a book called"Performance Welding," by Richard Finch, one of theguys who helped rewrite the FAA's welding standards.Owen Davies________________________________________________________________________________
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Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet List: welding

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Original Posted By: Christian Bobka
Chris Bobka observed:> Indeed there is great controversy over the noramlizing after welding with> TIG procedure. Richard Finch adamantly says no need to do it. Yet, it is> relatively cheap insurance so I suggest TIG and then normalize.Actually, that's minimizing Finch's position. He doesn't merelysay that there is no need to do a post-weld heat. He says thatdoing so will actively mess up your joint and seriously increaseyour chances of trouble. Very expensive insurance indeed!According to Finch, stress relieving 4130 requires subjectingthe entire structure to a temperature between 1125 and 1265degrees F, held for several minutes and then cooled over aperiod of hours. There is no way it can be done in a home shop,and anything less precise than that introduces uncertainties,at best, and can actually promote failure of the airframe.That said, Kevin Kimball, of the airplane restoration family,reports that in rebuilding many planes, they have found cracksonly in structures they knew had not been stress-relieved. Mybest guess is that the old planes had some really dubiouswelds, so that almost anything would help. It may be worthnoting that nearly all of the planes the Kimballs have restoredmust have been built with 1025 steel, rather than 4130, and1025 is not ever supposed to need post-weld heating!I've watched this argument with great interest for a long time,without ever learning enough to resolve it myself. At this point,I have come to feel that the conservative position is to believeFinch and the other metallurgically sophisticated types whoagree with him. But it's still a tough call.Owen Davies________________________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:56:43 -0500
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Re: Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By:
Hi Corky I have an idea I have only mocked up but it should work like this. Ihave the straight axle with 21" motorcycle wheel alloy rims and widenedhubs. The brakes are drum, lever operated. The brake lever is mounted on thestick and is longer than a standard motorcycle lever. The standardmotorcycle cable splits into two after it runs parallel to the hinge line ofthe sticks aileron axis. Stick position doesn't change its tension. Each cable then passes through the floor behind the rudder bar, about wherethe rear gear V attaches, and on to each brake. Two slotted straps with apulley at the rear end are attached to the rudder bar and the cables travelthrough the slots. If the brake lever is squeezed with the rudder bar in thestraight position the slots in the straps do not contact the cable. Thecable is adjusted so that the lever almost touches the stick when squeezedhard. When the bar is pushed in either direction the slotted strap on thatside pulls that cable and makes it tighter. The brake lever won't travel asfar now but only the brake on the applied rudder side works. I mocked thisup in my trial cockpit and I am pretty sure it will work. I haven't figuredout how far from the rudder bar hinge to attach the straps.This wouldposition lever at full rudder and one brake on. The brake cables are exposedand run in guarded pulleys. There is a pulley mounted at the floor for eachcable to guide the cable to the wheel.I really want the tall wheel look and most of the setups like that I haveseen have no brakes or two brake levers. I like the idea of being able tohave one hand on the stick, and brake, the other on the throttle.Six more pulleys. Some motorcycle brake lever adjusters, cable and a bit ofsteel strap. Not too much more weight for the peace of mind of stopping on ahard surface. Sure would hate to roll into somebody's aluminum beauty!I suppose your hydraulic system might work out if you mounted the pedals andcylinders on the bar. Cylinders near the hinge and bell cranks to operatethem. Perhaps you could mount the cylinders remotely and use cable fromrudder bar mounted toe pedals. Keep experimenting.Never give up, just work on something else while you think about it.John Mc----- Original Message -----
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Re: Pietenpol-List: welding

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Original Posted By: Robert Haines
I use all three types of welders. the MIG is good for production type workon sheet stock. The TIG is okay, but on clusters I find I can get into thetight corners better with Oxy/Actylene. The self annealing factor of theOxy/Ac gives me peace of mind. Wood smells better.John Mc----- Original Message -----
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Pietenpol-List: welding

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Original Posted By: David Scott
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Re: Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: BrakesThanks John, This is a problem with nearly all Piets and most builders will be confronted sooner or later. It has just about brought my project to a halt. Bill Rewey's set up has been recommended by several so I called him this am. He is sending me some sketches of his arrangement. Due to "on hand" items I have to stick with Cleveland brakes. Only for parking and run-up. NEVER for the runway. That I learned well many, many years ago.Corky________________________________________________________________________________
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RE: Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I put toe brakes in my rudder bar airplane. I mounted the non-reservoirmaster cylinders parrallel to the first diagonal from the firewall and madean upsidown L pedal for each side. Works great and I only need about1/2-3/4" travel to activate the brake. I looked for a picture but itappears that I'll have to go take one. I'll post soon.Steve E.-----Original Message-----
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Re: Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: BrakesThanks Steve,I toyed with that idea but didn't know if I had enough room. How about the possible drag on rudder operation from those 2 hyd lines?Corky________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:37:37 -0500
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Pietenpol-List: welding

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Original Posted By: Steve Eldredge
I am about to step into the line of fire here...Most MIG welders are designed to weld fast and put lots of wire out there to fill in a fillet weld or generate a thick bead. That's OK by me, it comes in handy most of the time.My method for ensuring a good, low stress weld in small parts is to use the .023 wire (the small diameter wire) and turn the speed almost all the way down. There is a speed that is too slow and the wire will melt and pull off of the weld, my speed is just faster than that. I leave the power level high to what the welder recommends for that thickness. The result is a large area of heated material.This goes against the effecient nature of normal MIG welding as you waste considerable heat. For these purposes, it seems to be appropriate.My friends MIG weld body panels and to keep from warping, they stitch weld using 1/4" beads (about 1 to 2 seconds). Either wait 5 to 10 seconds between welds or move down about 4 inches and start another stitch coming back after two or three stitches to fill in sections.This is a different philosophy from OxyA (or I guess TIG) where you generate a pool and keep it molten for the whole weld. I guess is stems from the fact that generating a pool with a MIG welder is simply point and shoot, its real easy to start and stop.Robert HainesMurphysboro, Illinois________________________________________________________________________________
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RE: Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
No drag because they are not connected in any way to the rudder bar.steve E. Stay tuned for a pic.-----Original Message-----
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Re: Pietenpol-List: welding

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Original Posted By: Christian Bobka
Robert Haines said:> My method for ensuring a good, low stress weld in small parts is to usethe> .023 wire (the small diameter wire) and turn the speed almost all the way> down. There is a speed that is too slow and the wire will melt and pulloff> of the weld, my speed is just faster than that. I leave the power level> high to what the welder recommends for that thickness. The result is a> large area of heated material.It sounds like you are recommending thisfor something like those control-system partsdiscussed in recent messages, rather thanfor the airframe itself. Did I get this right?Owen Davies________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:32:34 -0500
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Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By: "Gary Meadows"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: BrakesWill pass on to builders a little experience for what it might be worth. Several months ago I fought the brake problem and wasted, or should I say experimented, for about 5 weeks. Thought I had it licked. Used Cessna cylinders with Bill's toe brake system. I then ran plastic tubing through the side of fuse and down to a point at the rear strut to join with an aluminum tube to the wheel cyl. Thought this would minimum the stuff inside the cockpits. Charged the system with the red stuff and I had great parking brakes. (Thats all I want the brakes for as any pilot who would think about controling his creation using brakes might better try sailing) Soooo What is the point!!!!!!!!!!!!Today I noticed some red stuff on the side of the fuse which would be under fabric had I continued this arrangement. Luckily it leaked and warned me of a bad design.Sooooo I now have the short flexibe line from the brake cyl to the alum tube which is now poking its head through a hole in the floor and running back to the strut. If it leaks I can get to it and rectify the problem. Hope this little warning saves someone a little time.Corky in beautiful La________________________________________________________________________________
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Re: Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By: "norman"
Corky, Thanks for that heads-up. I'll remember to use the aluminum tubing like you said, if I decide to use hydraulic brakes. I may still do some sort of mechanical brakes. That is, if I ever get the gear figured out!Keep a building!Gary________________________________________________________________________________
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Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By: "Alan Lyscars"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: BrakesI'm looking in to various go-kart brakes for my Piet and just wondering what most of you use -- the mechanically actuated disc brakes, or the hydraulic juice brake calipers. I see advantages/disadvantages to both and wanted to seewhat all of the experts have to say! I'm building the Jenny-style landing gearand will use disc brakes -- just wondering if mechanical or juice...Got all the tail feathers finished over the weekend -- less hinges (will install those tonight). Came out nice and light...then I'll get the fuselage downfrom the ceiling joists and start putting landing gear together...Hey, less than 90 days to Brodhead! Fred B.La Crosse, WI________________________________________________________________________________
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Re: Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By: R Matt Doody
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RE: Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By: "Phillips, Jack"
Hi,I have the disassembly video. Like the stage 1 assembly video it is good. Hetalks you through deciding what to keep and what to discard and gives you a heads-upon things that are problematic and what areas people tend to break whenthey do it incorrectly. What I value most in all of his materials is that hepresents it in a way that reduces the process of disassembly and making the conversionto a straight-forward process that any careful somewhat mechanicallyinclined individual should be able to reproduce. For the $20 I spent for thevideo I think it was worth it. I'm not a mechanic but I am a careful, mechanically inclined individual.That's my opinion.--------Glenn ThomasN?????http://www.flyingwood.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: BrakesDate: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 10:18:43 -0400
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Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By: greg menoche
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Pietenpol-List: Re: Don E's Airplane--from Ohio

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Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
Hi Fred,I have 19" spoked wheels on mine. I use a 5" mechanical drum brake from Kart Worldout of Cleveland, OH. The brakes are very simple and low profile. Theyare cable actuated and are attached to hand levers under the instument panel.The hand levers are just aftermarket motorcycle handles from a local motorcycleshop. They are placed close enough together that I can hold both of them atonce for the run-up. They are just enough to barely hold the run-up. Sometimes,by the time I finish the run-up I've crept a foot or so. I can deal withthat. The only other time I use them is for taxiing. They seem to be okayfor that. A liitle planning ahead is a good idea too.Don EmchRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Don E's Airplane--from Ohio
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Post by matronics »

Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Bill...The wheel covers are just regular doped fabric. I made an aluminum disk/ring atthe hub on both the inside and the outside. Glued the fabric to it then positionedit over the hub. Then just glued the fabric around the inside edge ofthe rim where the tire mounts. Made sure I had a few inches of glued area aroundthere. Then just finished it like any other doped fabric. Tire mountingis not fun! Lots of soap, little wood wedges, cussing, and sore fingers. Iam not looking forward to replacing those things some day. I'll have to makesure the kids aren't around when I do!Don EmchRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
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Re: Pietenpol-List: Trim tab was pitch trim saved Sean Tucker's life

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Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Trim tab was pitch trim saved Sean Tucker's lifeIn a message dated 4/26/2006 8:11:46 AM Central Standard Time, at7000ft(at)gmail.com writes:So attaching a metal trim tab to the back of one flipper will not fix a pitch trim problem? You must put a tab on both?Rick,If you are using this method, you need a trim tab on Both flippers. I would caution against using metal tabs, because holes for the screws in the wood will not only weaken the wood slightly, it is also a point for moisture infiltration.Chuck G.NX770CG________________________________________________________________________________
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Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brakes

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Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
Don,How did you enlarge the hole in the backing plates to fit over the axel and the hubs? How did you mount them? Pictures?Chris TracySacramento, Ca----- Original Message -----
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Pietenpol-List: Re: Brakes

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Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: spoked wheelsThanks Jim,Jack, and Larry for the info on Buchanans. Thanks, Robert Bush ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brakes
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Original Posted By: "Dick Navratil"
Chris,Mine look exactly like Walts! If I remember correctly the hole dia. was about5/8". I am Tool and Die Maker by trade so there are a lot of things on the planethat were made or modified on the lathe. When I made those though I was laidoff and didn't have access to a lathe so I put the on my drill press at homeclamped them down really tight said a little prayer and open them up with theright size hole saw. Finshed 'em off with some filing.Don EmchRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
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Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brakes

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Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
DonI bought my Wildwood hyd brake calipers from Kart World also. Unfortunatly they are now out of business.I have been searching for someplace else for parts, when I need them.Dick N.----- Original Message -----
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Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By: Oscar Zuniga
Good day fellow mentors.Having no experience yet flying a tail dragger, especially a Pietenpol, Iwas curious as to what most Piet builders think of having brakes or not ontheir aircraft?We will be flying both grass and hard surface runways.We plan on having brakes, but not brake pedals. We are thinking of having abrake handle like on a motorcycle.The drawback, would be that we don't have individual braking " left orright", just both wheels would brake the same amount.We will have a antilock regulator and proportioning valve.We hope to use a steerable tail wheel, and are a bit concerned about theease of taxing and turning without individual brakes on our Piet.Any input or advice would be appreciated.Marc and Larry________________________________________________________________________________
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Re: Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By: "Ryan Mueller"
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Re: Pietenpol-List: Resessed straps

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Original Posted By: Matt Dralle
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RE: Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By: "Phillips, Jack"
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Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By: Michael Perez
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Re: Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By: Marc Dumay
I have a M.C. brake actuator on the stick. I also have a steerable tail wheel. I would get tighter turning radius with dual actuators, but for simplicity, it's just fine for me.Dick N. ----- Original Message -----
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Pietenpol-List: Re: Brakes

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Original Posted By: "Richard Schreiber"
About five years ago (April 12, 2003 to be exact) Pietenpol builder John McNarryposted the following. It sounded like an interesting arrangement, but I can'tfind any postings from John since 2004, so I don't know if it ever got operational.The basic arrangement makes sense, just not sure how it would performin the real world Bill C. :I won't claim this works as I have only made a proof of concept mock up. Ihave the straight axle gear 21" rims with cable operated drum brakes and therudder bar. The brake control is like a motorcycle hand brake mounted on thefront of the stick. The sheathed cable runs down the stick and splits intotwo cables parallel to the aileron torque tube. These two cable sheaths areanchored to the floor and the inner cable make a 180 degree turn backtowards the front at about under the seat. They then pass over movingpulleys that are fastened with rod links to the rudder bar. This means thecables have an S shaped path and exit the floor at about the rear landinggear "V" strut. Sheathed motorcycle cables take the pull from there to thedrum brake levers.With the handle squeezed hard toward the stick the wheels are locked. Thelever is at a bit of a stretch but I can get my fingers around it. When therudder bar is moved, the cable on the side the bar is pressed gets tighter.The opposite side goes slack. The differential is enough that the oppositewheel turns freely. The hand lever moves toward the stick slightly. Theslack cable is held on the pulleys by guards and fair lead tubes on thetorque tube. I haven't built the whole affair yet and plan to have a row ofholes on the pull rod attachment at the rudder bar. This will allow me tofind the right rudder bar pull point.Benefits: Brakes! I can hold the brakes with one hand. Differential braking. No Hydraulics. Motorcycle cables are adjustable. Thinking this up is a cure for insomnia.Disadvantages: The pile of parts weighs about 2 lbs. I can't seem to find the time to finish it.Rudder bar? Well the first vehicles I drove where "Capital I go-karts" withfront axle steering. You pushed on the opposite side from the direction youwanted to steer.All my time has been in older tail draggers. The Tiger Moth has the onlyrudder bar I've flown. It has no brakes and a funny linkage that keeps thepedal attached to the bar from swinging in an arc. It still requires a lotof leg motion.Learn to dance. Fly a tail dragger!JohnRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
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Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By: Douwe Blumberg
That's a good technique as well. It's all relative I suppose. I did the bankcheckhauling in the 80's (8 -9 legs/night) in Learjets, so I got accustomed to havingto avoid dragging a tip tank in severe x-winds, de-crabbing in the flare.Now flying the 747-8/-400's, as well as the Dreamlifter (LCF). Our manual states5 deg bank limit to avoid scraping #1 or 4. So I find it much easier to basicallyde-crab in the flare to touchdown. I'd probably ground loop trying thesideslip the GN-1 from 200' up after all these years of doing it the "easy"way.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brakes
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RE: Pietenpol-List: Brakes

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Original Posted By:> Douwe Blumberg
Douwe,How far does your toe actuator stick out form the fuse wall? And how farabove and (I assume) in front of neutral rudder bar?Skip> [Original Message]
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Pietenpol-List:

Post by matronics »

Original Posted By: John Kuhfahl
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brakes>>> Chris. First off, I am stoked to see your plane! Any chance ofbroadhead? Secondly, I modified helsper's brake design and I really likeit. A toe actuator sticks out from the fuse walls just in front of mytoes, they go thru slots in the wood to flay stock levers which lieagainst the outside of the ply , between ply and fabric, their endsprotrude out a slot at the bottom and a cable from each brake Ron's tothem. All you see in the cockpit is a two inch tube sticking in,everything else is hidden. Just like dans in concept, just moved somestuff outboard.>> Douwe>>________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:54:49 -0600Subject: Pietenpol-List:
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