Original Posted By: Steve Eldredge
Can anyone here tell me how to check the quality if the wood we aregoing to use? We want information on how to select douglas fir please.Also how much does the Piet weigh on average. We will be using the soobpower plant.Thank you________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Please help to check wood.
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: JRoss10612(at)aol.com
>Can anyone here tell me how to check the quality if the wood we are>going to use? We want information on how to select douglas fir please.>Also how much does the Piet weigh on average. We will be using the soob>power plant.>>Thank you>EmelitaGive me a FAX # and I can send you a report on Fir for Aircraft useBarrybed(at)mindspring.com________________________________________________________________________________
>Can anyone here tell me how to check the quality if the wood we are>going to use? We want information on how to select douglas fir please.>Also how much does the Piet weigh on average. We will be using the soob>power plant.>>Thank you>EmelitaGive me a FAX # and I can send you a report on Fir for Aircraft useBarrybed(at)mindspring.com________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: Bill Talbert
>What you are ooking for is a copy of the MIL-Spec 6073 regarding aircraftwood. This was the original specification for aircraft wood way back when itwas the material of choice. I am fairly sure that the specification includesmethods for substitutions of other woods. I can assure you that veryicalgrain Douglas Fir is one of them. I think that the allowable grain slope is1:15. I suggest you obtain additional information from the EAA library inOshkosh, WI. Call them at 414-426-4800 and ask for the library. They will askfor a nominal donation if they do the resarch for you and send you copies. Itis money well spent, besides, it is a great organization to belong to ifyou're going to build an airplane. EAA has published much info on sustituteaircaraft woods, ask then about this.I would also consult AC 43.131A/3 Acceptable Methods, techniques andPractices. It has a nice section on Wood. Also, two older governmentpublications ANC-18 & ANC 19 design and fabrication of wood aircraftstructures. Learning to grade wood for aircraft use is not difficult, and is easier thanit sounds. But it is important to select wood carefully, especially for sparsand longerons. I can tell you that Douglas fir is about 20% heavier than aircraft spruce, soto obtain efficient use out of the doug fir you need to make the partsslightly smaller. This is an acceptable practice, and has been in fact donein many Pietenpols. If you simply build per the plans and use doug fir, youwill have a HEAVY Pietenpol. Heck, Pietenpols are heavy to begin with, sosize the parts and you can have a strong, light Pietenpol.Please let me know if I can be of any more assistance.Pietenpols Forever (even though I'm building an RV-8)Jon Ross BPA Member ________________________________________________________________________________
>What you are ooking for is a copy of the MIL-Spec 6073 regarding aircraftwood. This was the original specification for aircraft wood way back when itwas the material of choice. I am fairly sure that the specification includesmethods for substitutions of other woods. I can assure you that veryicalgrain Douglas Fir is one of them. I think that the allowable grain slope is1:15. I suggest you obtain additional information from the EAA library inOshkosh, WI. Call them at 414-426-4800 and ask for the library. They will askfor a nominal donation if they do the resarch for you and send you copies. Itis money well spent, besides, it is a great organization to belong to ifyou're going to build an airplane. EAA has published much info on sustituteaircaraft woods, ask then about this.I would also consult AC 43.131A/3 Acceptable Methods, techniques andPractices. It has a nice section on Wood. Also, two older governmentpublications ANC-18 & ANC 19 design and fabrication of wood aircraftstructures. Learning to grade wood for aircraft use is not difficult, and is easier thanit sounds. But it is important to select wood carefully, especially for sparsand longerons. I can tell you that Douglas fir is about 20% heavier than aircraft spruce, soto obtain efficient use out of the doug fir you need to make the partsslightly smaller. This is an acceptable practice, and has been in fact donein many Pietenpols. If you simply build per the plans and use doug fir, youwill have a HEAVY Pietenpol. Heck, Pietenpols are heavy to begin with, sosize the parts and you can have a strong, light Pietenpol.Please let me know if I can be of any more assistance.Pietenpols Forever (even though I'm building an RV-8)Jon Ross BPA Member ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: adamson@add-inc.com (Adamson, Arden)
I suggest you obtain additional information from the EAA library in> Oshkosh, WI. Call them at 414-426-4800 and ask for the library. The heck with that LD business. the toll-free number is 1-800-843-3612 (in US andCanada).They also have a web site for e-mail and stuff. Obviously if your looking at firyour on a budget. I know I am.Bill________________________________________________________________________________
I suggest you obtain additional information from the EAA library in> Oshkosh, WI. Call them at 414-426-4800 and ask for the library. The heck with that LD business. the toll-free number is 1-800-843-3612 (in US andCanada).They also have a web site for e-mail and stuff. Obviously if your looking at firyour on a budget. I know I am.Bill________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: JRoss10612(at)aol.com
Emelita Wrote.My fax # is= 601-824-7198Thank youEmelita WilliamsonBarry Davis wrote:> > >Can anyone here tell me how to check the quality if the wood we are> >going to use? We want information on how to select douglas fir please.> >Also how much does the Piet weigh on average. We will be using the soob> >power plant.> >> >Thank you> >> > Emelita> > Give me a FAX # and I can send you a report on Fir for Aircraft use> > Barry> bed(at)mindspring.com________________________________________________________________________________
Emelita Wrote.My fax # is= 601-824-7198Thank youEmelita WilliamsonBarry Davis wrote:> > >Can anyone here tell me how to check the quality if the wood we are> >going to use? We want information on how to select douglas fir please.> >Also how much does the Piet weigh on average. We will be using the soob> >power plant.> >> >Thank you> >> > Emelita> > Give me a FAX # and I can send you a report on Fir for Aircraft use> > Barry> bed(at)mindspring.com________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: adamson@add-inc.com (Adamson, Arden)
Barry Davis wrote:> > >Can anyone here tell me how to check the quality if the wood we are> >going to use? We want information on how to select douglas fir please.> >Also how much does the Piet weigh on average. We will be using the soob> >power plant.> >> >Thank you> >> > Emelita> > Give me a FAX # and I can send you a report on Fir for Aircraft use> > Barry> bed(at)mindspring.comBarry, Would you please send me also a copy of your report on Fir for aircraft use. Thanks. My fax number is (715) 258-0408.Arden Adamson________________________________________________________________________________
Barry Davis wrote:> > >Can anyone here tell me how to check the quality if the wood we are> >going to use? We want information on how to select douglas fir please.> >Also how much does the Piet weigh on average. We will be using the soob> >power plant.> >> >Thank you> >> > Emelita> > Give me a FAX # and I can send you a report on Fir for Aircraft use> > Barry> bed(at)mindspring.comBarry, Would you please send me also a copy of your report on Fir for aircraft use. Thanks. My fax number is (715) 258-0408.Arden Adamson________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: Emelita W
JRoss10612(at)aol.com wrote:> > > Can anyone here tell me how to check the quality if the wood we are> going to use? We want information on how to select douglas fir please.> Also how much does the Piet weigh on average. We will be using the soob> power plant.> > Thank you >>> > What you are ooking for is a copy of the MIL-Spec 6073 regarding aircraft> wood. This was the original specification for aircraft wood way back when it> was the material of choice. I am fairly sure that the specification includes> methods for substitutions of other woods. I can assure you that veryical> grain Douglas Fir is one of them. I think that the allowable grain slope is> 1:15. I suggest you obtain additional information from the EAA library in> Oshkosh, WI. Call them at 414-426-4800 and ask for the library. They will ask> for a nominal donation if they do the resarch for you and send you copies. It> is money well spent, besides, it is a great organization to belong to if> you're going to build an airplane. EAA has published much info on sustitute> aircaraft woods, ask then about this.> > I would also consult AC 43.131A/3 Acceptable Methods, techniques and> Practices. It has a nice section on Wood. Also, two older government> publications ANC-18 & ANC 19 design and fabrication of wood aircraft> structures.> > Learning to grade wood for aircraft use is not difficult, and is easier than> it sounds. But it is important to select wood carefully, especially for spars> and longerons.> > I can tell you that Douglas fir is about 20% heavier than aircraft spruce, so> to obtain efficient use out of the doug fir you need to make the parts> slightly smaller. This is an acceptable practice, and has been in fact done> in many Pietenpols. If you simply build per the plans and use doug fir, you> will have a HEAVY Pietenpol. Heck, Pietenpols are heavy to begin with, so> size the parts and you can have a strong, light Pietenpol.> > Please let me know if I can be of any more assistance.> > Pietenpols Forever (even though I'm building an RV-8)> Jon Ross BPA MemberJon, when you say that it's ok to make the douglas fir parts smaller, how much smaller can they be? Can you give me some examples, say the fusalage framing. Thanks.Arden________________________________________________________________________________
JRoss10612(at)aol.com wrote:> > > Can anyone here tell me how to check the quality if the wood we are> going to use? We want information on how to select douglas fir please.> Also how much does the Piet weigh on average. We will be using the soob> power plant.> > Thank you >>> > What you are ooking for is a copy of the MIL-Spec 6073 regarding aircraft> wood. This was the original specification for aircraft wood way back when it> was the material of choice. I am fairly sure that the specification includes> methods for substitutions of other woods. I can assure you that veryical> grain Douglas Fir is one of them. I think that the allowable grain slope is> 1:15. I suggest you obtain additional information from the EAA library in> Oshkosh, WI. Call them at 414-426-4800 and ask for the library. They will ask> for a nominal donation if they do the resarch for you and send you copies. It> is money well spent, besides, it is a great organization to belong to if> you're going to build an airplane. EAA has published much info on sustitute> aircaraft woods, ask then about this.> > I would also consult AC 43.131A/3 Acceptable Methods, techniques and> Practices. It has a nice section on Wood. Also, two older government> publications ANC-18 & ANC 19 design and fabrication of wood aircraft> structures.> > Learning to grade wood for aircraft use is not difficult, and is easier than> it sounds. But it is important to select wood carefully, especially for spars> and longerons.> > I can tell you that Douglas fir is about 20% heavier than aircraft spruce, so> to obtain efficient use out of the doug fir you need to make the parts> slightly smaller. This is an acceptable practice, and has been in fact done> in many Pietenpols. If you simply build per the plans and use doug fir, you> will have a HEAVY Pietenpol. Heck, Pietenpols are heavy to begin with, so> size the parts and you can have a strong, light Pietenpol.> > Please let me know if I can be of any more assistance.> > Pietenpols Forever (even though I'm building an RV-8)> Jon Ross BPA MemberJon, when you say that it's ok to make the douglas fir parts smaller, how much smaller can they be? Can you give me some examples, say the fusalage framing. Thanks.Arden________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: jimvan1(at)juno.com (Jim T VanDervort)
Arden,The best way to determine reduction in size of longerons and other parts isto do the math. It's not as simple as say make it smaller all around by say1/8", but that's not far off I bet. I do remember reading somewhere aboutthe size substitutions for the Pietenpol main wing spar. I beleive it was anunrouted solid spar 3/4 of an inch thick. Again, there are simple formulas,available in the EAA aircraft woodworking books. Try to obtain one of thesewoodworking books, they are a real treasure trove of information, or perhapsthe Fir report refered to in this list will have the formula to use forsizing fir substitutions.Like Bill said, many are on a budget, but proper selection of grain slope,orientation and denstity (growth rings per inch) is very important,especially for spars or longerons. Keep in mind that Doug Fir has long been afavorite by Pietenpol builders, so it can and has been done. Education is theleast expensive part of your Pietenpol.BTW, will you use a Model A?Hope this helps,Jon Ross________________________________________________________________________________
Arden,The best way to determine reduction in size of longerons and other parts isto do the math. It's not as simple as say make it smaller all around by say1/8", but that's not far off I bet. I do remember reading somewhere aboutthe size substitutions for the Pietenpol main wing spar. I beleive it was anunrouted solid spar 3/4 of an inch thick. Again, there are simple formulas,available in the EAA aircraft woodworking books. Try to obtain one of thesewoodworking books, they are a real treasure trove of information, or perhapsthe Fir report refered to in this list will have the formula to use forsizing fir substitutions.Like Bill said, many are on a budget, but proper selection of grain slope,orientation and denstity (growth rings per inch) is very important,especially for spars or longerons. Keep in mind that Doug Fir has long been afavorite by Pietenpol builders, so it can and has been done. Education is theleast expensive part of your Pietenpol.BTW, will you use a Model A?Hope this helps,Jon Ross________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
JRoss10612(at)aol.com wrote:> > Arden,> > The best way to determine reduction in size of longerons and other parts is> to do the math. It's not as simple as say make it smaller all around by say> 1/8", but that's not far off I bet. I do remember reading somewhere about> the size substitutions for the Pietenpol main wing spar. I beleive it was an> unrouted solid spar 3/4 of an inch thick. Again, there are simple formulas,> available in the EAA aircraft woodworking books. Try to obtain one of these> woodworking books, they are a real treasure trove of information, or perhaps> the Fir report refered to in this list will have the formula to use for> sizing fir substitutions.> > Like Bill said, many are on a budget, but proper selection of grain slope,> orientation and denstity (growth rings per inch) is very important,> especially for spars or longerons. Keep in mind that Doug Fir has long been a> favorite by Pietenpol builders, so it can and has been done. Education is the> least expensive part of your Pietenpol.> > BTW, will you use a Model A?> > Hope this helps,> Jon RossJon. Thanks for your response. I'll check into your recommendations. I have the Piet plans and hope to use the Model A. Haven't started yet but am gathering info. Instead I've built a house, duplex, and next is a large garage (34 X 50). Hope is to start building then in the garage.Good luck on your RV-8. How far along are you?Arden________________________________________________________________________________
JRoss10612(at)aol.com wrote:> > Arden,> > The best way to determine reduction in size of longerons and other parts is> to do the math. It's not as simple as say make it smaller all around by say> 1/8", but that's not far off I bet. I do remember reading somewhere about> the size substitutions for the Pietenpol main wing spar. I beleive it was an> unrouted solid spar 3/4 of an inch thick. Again, there are simple formulas,> available in the EAA aircraft woodworking books. Try to obtain one of these> woodworking books, they are a real treasure trove of information, or perhaps> the Fir report refered to in this list will have the formula to use for> sizing fir substitutions.> > Like Bill said, many are on a budget, but proper selection of grain slope,> orientation and denstity (growth rings per inch) is very important,> especially for spars or longerons. Keep in mind that Doug Fir has long been a> favorite by Pietenpol builders, so it can and has been done. Education is the> least expensive part of your Pietenpol.> > BTW, will you use a Model A?> > Hope this helps,> Jon RossJon. Thanks for your response. I'll check into your recommendations. I have the Piet plans and hope to use the Model A. Haven't started yet but am gathering info. Instead I've built a house, duplex, and next is a large garage (34 X 50). Hope is to start building then in the garage.Good luck on your RV-8. How far along are you?Arden________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: jimvan1(at)juno.com (Jim T VanDervort)
Arden,The Empennage is complete on my RV-8, and the wings are being skinned now. Iexpect the fuselage kit in another month or so. Good luck with the Pietenpol!Best, Jon________________________________________________________________________________
Arden,The Empennage is complete on my RV-8, and the wings are being skinned now. Iexpect the fuselage kit in another month or so. Good luck with the Pietenpol!Best, Jon________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: Dean Dayton
>Arden,>>The best way to determine reduction in size of longerons and other >parts is>to do the math. It's not as simple as say make it smaller all around >by say>1/8", but that's not far off I bet. I do remember reading somewhere >about>the size substitutions for the Pietenpol main wing spar. I beleive it >was an>unrouted solid spar 3/4 of an inch thick. Again, there are simple >formulas,>available in the EAA aircraft woodworking books. Try to obtain one of >these>woodworking books, they are a real treasure trove of information, or >perhaps>the Fir report refered to in this list will have the formula to use >for>sizing fir substitutions.>>Like Bill said, many are on a budget, but proper selection of grain >slope,>orientation and denstity (growth rings per inch) is very important,>especially for spars or longerons. Keep in mind that Doug Fir has long >been a>favorite by Pietenpol builders, so it can and has been done. Education >is the>least expensive part of your Pietenpol.>>BTW, will you use a Model A?>>Hope this helps,>Jon RossI think the price of sitka spruce ought to be compared to the price ofsubstitutes. When I built my Piet the second time, spruce was no more costly. JimV.________________________________________________________________________________
>Arden,>>The best way to determine reduction in size of longerons and other >parts is>to do the math. It's not as simple as say make it smaller all around >by say>1/8", but that's not far off I bet. I do remember reading somewhere >about>the size substitutions for the Pietenpol main wing spar. I beleive it >was an>unrouted solid spar 3/4 of an inch thick. Again, there are simple >formulas,>available in the EAA aircraft woodworking books. Try to obtain one of >these>woodworking books, they are a real treasure trove of information, or >perhaps>the Fir report refered to in this list will have the formula to use >for>sizing fir substitutions.>>Like Bill said, many are on a budget, but proper selection of grain >slope,>orientation and denstity (growth rings per inch) is very important,>especially for spars or longerons. Keep in mind that Doug Fir has long >been a>favorite by Pietenpol builders, so it can and has been done. Education >is the>least expensive part of your Pietenpol.>>BTW, will you use a Model A?>>Hope this helps,>Jon RossI think the price of sitka spruce ought to be compared to the price ofsubstitutes. When I built my Piet the second time, spruce was no more costly. JimV.________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
>>I think the price of sitka spruce ought to be compared to the price of>substitutes. >When I built my Piet the second time, spruce was no more costly. JimV.I'm curious what led up to this statement. Are you saying that you used a goodgrade of Douglas Fir and had problems with it? Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------________________________________________________________________________________
>>I think the price of sitka spruce ought to be compared to the price of>substitutes. >When I built my Piet the second time, spruce was no more costly. JimV.I'm curious what led up to this statement. Are you saying that you used a goodgrade of Douglas Fir and had problems with it? Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: JGreenlee(at)aol.com
> >> > >I think the price of sitka spruce ought to be compared to the price of> >substitutes. > >When I built my Piet the second time, spruce was no more costly. JimV.> > I'm curious what led up to this statement. Are you saying that you used a good> grade of Douglas Fir and had problems with it? > Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com> > ---------------------------------------------------------> Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com> ---------------------------------------------------------> I can get an aircraft grade sitka front spar plank from a local supplier here inSounthern Ontario for about $180. That's about $135 us. What's the price foran equivalent part in fir from a lumber yard?Also, has anybody bought lumber from a marine supplier? Would selecting piecesfrom marine grade stock be worthwhile?John KahnBombardier Inc.________________________________________________________________________________
> >> > >I think the price of sitka spruce ought to be compared to the price of> >substitutes. > >When I built my Piet the second time, spruce was no more costly. JimV.> > I'm curious what led up to this statement. Are you saying that you used a good> grade of Douglas Fir and had problems with it? > Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com> > ---------------------------------------------------------> Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com> ---------------------------------------------------------> I can get an aircraft grade sitka front spar plank from a local supplier here inSounthern Ontario for about $180. That's about $135 us. What's the price foran equivalent part in fir from a lumber yard?Also, has anybody bought lumber from a marine supplier? Would selecting piecesfrom marine grade stock be worthwhile?John KahnBombardier Inc.________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
> >>I can get an aircraft grade sitka front spar plank from a local supplier herein >Sounthern Ontario for about $180. That's about $135 us. What's the price for>an equivalent part in fir from a lumber yard?>>Also, has anybody bought lumber from a marine supplier? Would selecting piecesfrom >marine grade stock be worthwhile?>I buy a "nice" vertically sawn 2X10 Douglas Fir with about 10 rings per inch for$3.90 per linear foot. One of the local lumber yards orders this stuff specifically for people building and repairing aircraft. This wood is NOT typical of what you'll find in a lumber yard. But this is still considerably less expensive than buying spruce through Wicks or Aircraft Spruce. I haven't found a local source for aircraft quality Spruce. (JimV - Do you knowof one in central of southern Ohio?)What size are the spar planks you're pricing?Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------________________________________________________________________________________
> >>I can get an aircraft grade sitka front spar plank from a local supplier herein >Sounthern Ontario for about $180. That's about $135 us. What's the price for>an equivalent part in fir from a lumber yard?>>Also, has anybody bought lumber from a marine supplier? Would selecting piecesfrom >marine grade stock be worthwhile?>I buy a "nice" vertically sawn 2X10 Douglas Fir with about 10 rings per inch for$3.90 per linear foot. One of the local lumber yards orders this stuff specifically for people building and repairing aircraft. This wood is NOT typical of what you'll find in a lumber yard. But this is still considerably less expensive than buying spruce through Wicks or Aircraft Spruce. I haven't found a local source for aircraft quality Spruce. (JimV - Do you knowof one in central of southern Ohio?)What size are the spar planks you're pricing?Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: Dean Dayton
I buy a "nice" vertically sawn 2X10 Douglas Fir with about 10 rings per inch for$3.90 per linear foot. One of the local lumber yards orders this stuff specifically for people building and repairing aircraft. This wood is NOT typical of what you'll find in a lumber yard. But this is still considerably less expensive than buying spruce through Wicks or Aircraft Spruce. I haven't found a local source for aircraft quality Spruce. (JimV - Do you knowof one in central of southern Ohio?)What size are the spar planks you're pricing?Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com3/4 x 5 1/2 x 13 ft. The price list is at home so I'll have to confirmthe dimension, plus I can get figures for other sizes. With the exchange rateand shipping, the cost seemed competitive with ordering from AS&S.I'm going to check out a place here in Toronto that sells spruce and fir forboat builders. Interesting to see the difference.Has anybody laminated their own spars from 1x1s? I've seen Citabria spars madethat way and they're supposed to be stronger than solid planks. Plus 1x1sare a little easier to obtain.How much mil spec spar grade wood would you be able to extract out of a firplank like that?John Kahn________________________________________________________________________________
I buy a "nice" vertically sawn 2X10 Douglas Fir with about 10 rings per inch for$3.90 per linear foot. One of the local lumber yards orders this stuff specifically for people building and repairing aircraft. This wood is NOT typical of what you'll find in a lumber yard. But this is still considerably less expensive than buying spruce through Wicks or Aircraft Spruce. I haven't found a local source for aircraft quality Spruce. (JimV - Do you knowof one in central of southern Ohio?)What size are the spar planks you're pricing?Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com3/4 x 5 1/2 x 13 ft. The price list is at home so I'll have to confirmthe dimension, plus I can get figures for other sizes. With the exchange rateand shipping, the cost seemed competitive with ordering from AS&S.I'm going to check out a place here in Toronto that sells spruce and fir forboat builders. Interesting to see the difference.Has anybody laminated their own spars from 1x1s? I've seen Citabria spars madethat way and they're supposed to be stronger than solid planks. Plus 1x1sare a little easier to obtain.How much mil spec spar grade wood would you be able to extract out of a firplank like that?John Kahn________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: Steve Eldredge
>How much mil spec spar grade wood would you be able to extract out of a fir>plank like that?>>>John KahnI think that about 20% of the planks I selected from were spar quality (the whole plank was suitable) and they had pieces up to 20ft.Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------________________________________________________________________________________
>How much mil spec spar grade wood would you be able to extract out of a fir>plank like that?>>>John KahnI think that about 20% of the planks I selected from were spar quality (the whole plank was suitable) and they had pieces up to 20ft.Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: Dean Dayton
Dean Dayton wrote:> >How much mil spec spar grade wood would you be able to extract out of>> a fir> >plank like that?> >> >> >John Kahn>> I think that about 20% of the planks I selected from were spar quality>> (the> whole plank was suitable) and they had pieces up to 20ft.> Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com>> ---------------------------------------------------------> Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com> --------------------------------------------------------- Just FYI I used 108 board feet in building my Piet to plansdimensioned sizes from rough cut lumber from the yard at an expense ofabout $500 total. If I remeber I started with 6 or 7 2by6by12'ssteveeDean Dayton wrote:>How much mil spec spar grade wood would you be ableto extract out ofa fir>plank like that?>>>John KahnI think that about 20% of the planks I selected from were spar quality(thewhole plank was suitable) and they had pieces up to 20ft.Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------Just FYI I used 108 board feet in building my Piet to plansdimensioned sizes from rough cut lumber from the yard at an expense ofabout $500 total. If I remeber I started with 6 or 7 2by6by12'sstevee________________________________________________________________________________
Dean Dayton wrote:> >How much mil spec spar grade wood would you be able to extract out of>> a fir> >plank like that?> >> >> >John Kahn>> I think that about 20% of the planks I selected from were spar quality>> (the> whole plank was suitable) and they had pieces up to 20ft.> Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com>> ---------------------------------------------------------> Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com> --------------------------------------------------------- Just FYI I used 108 board feet in building my Piet to plansdimensioned sizes from rough cut lumber from the yard at an expense ofabout $500 total. If I remeber I started with 6 or 7 2by6by12'ssteveeDean Dayton wrote:>How much mil spec spar grade wood would you be ableto extract out ofa fir>plank like that?>>>John KahnI think that about 20% of the planks I selected from were spar quality(thewhole plank was suitable) and they had pieces up to 20ft.Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------Just FYI I used 108 board feet in building my Piet to plansdimensioned sizes from rough cut lumber from the yard at an expense ofabout $500 total. If I remeber I started with 6 or 7 2by6by12'sstevee________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
> Just FYI I used 108 board feet in building my Piet to plans>dimensioned sizes from rough cut lumber from the yard at an expense of>about $500 total. If I remeber I started with 6 or 7 2by6by12's>>stevee>What kind of wood did you use?Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------________________________________________________________________________________
> Just FYI I used 108 board feet in building my Piet to plans>dimensioned sizes from rough cut lumber from the yard at an expense of>about $500 total. If I remeber I started with 6 or 7 2by6by12's>>stevee>What kind of wood did you use?Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: Dean Dayton
>>How much mil spec spar grade wood would you be able to extract out of a fir>>plank like that?>>>>>>John Kahn>I think that about 20% of the planks I selected from were spar quality (the>whole plank was suitable) and they had pieces up to 20ft.>Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.comSo a 14ft plank for 55 bucks can be sawn into 4 spars??!! Such a deal!I gotta look into this a little more. Is it easy to spot compression failures in fir? And how the heck do youknow it's sitka spruce or douglas fir aside from taking their word for it?John Kahn________________________________________________________________________________
>>How much mil spec spar grade wood would you be able to extract out of a fir>>plank like that?>>>>>>John Kahn>I think that about 20% of the planks I selected from were spar quality (the>whole plank was suitable) and they had pieces up to 20ft.>Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.comSo a 14ft plank for 55 bucks can be sawn into 4 spars??!! Such a deal!I gotta look into this a little more. Is it easy to spot compression failures in fir? And how the heck do youknow it's sitka spruce or douglas fir aside from taking their word for it?John Kahn________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: Steve Eldredge
>So a 14ft plank for 55 bucks can be sawn into 4 spars??!! Such a deal!>I gotta look into this a little more. OK, you're forcing me to be correct here. I just checked my receipt and in factI paid $4.60 per foot for 2X8 (planed, not rough sawn). I don't remember Piet spar dimensions, can you get more than one from a 2X8? Sorry for the inaccuracy, I bought enough for the tail surfaces 6 months ago and it's been waiting for me to get enough time to make the first cut.>>Is it easy to spot compression failures in fir? The pictures I have seen of wood that has compression failures seems distinctive(if you examine the wood closely). I have not seen any actual wood with compression failure. I'll probably try to put together some kind of a test rigbefore I get too far along.>And how the heck do you>know it's sitka spruce or douglas fir aside from taking their word >for it?I went to the library and found a book with a good description and picture. Douglas Fir has a distinctive color (reddish) and grain (very straight).Please don't take any of the above statements as advice. I am not an expert, Iam only giving you my interpretation of the research I have done.IDean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------________________________________________________________________________________
>So a 14ft plank for 55 bucks can be sawn into 4 spars??!! Such a deal!>I gotta look into this a little more. OK, you're forcing me to be correct here. I just checked my receipt and in factI paid $4.60 per foot for 2X8 (planed, not rough sawn). I don't remember Piet spar dimensions, can you get more than one from a 2X8? Sorry for the inaccuracy, I bought enough for the tail surfaces 6 months ago and it's been waiting for me to get enough time to make the first cut.>>Is it easy to spot compression failures in fir? The pictures I have seen of wood that has compression failures seems distinctive(if you examine the wood closely). I have not seen any actual wood with compression failure. I'll probably try to put together some kind of a test rigbefore I get too far along.>And how the heck do you>know it's sitka spruce or douglas fir aside from taking their word >for it?I went to the library and found a book with a good description and picture. Douglas Fir has a distinctive color (reddish) and grain (very straight).Please don't take any of the above statements as advice. I am not an expert, Iam only giving you my interpretation of the research I have done.IDean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com---------------------------------------------------------________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: Steve Eldredge
Dean Dayton wrote:> > Just FYI I used 108 board feet in building my Piet to plans> >dimensioned sizes from rough cut lumber from the yard at an expense> of> >about $500 total. If I remeber I started with 6 or 7 2by6by12's> >> >stevee> >> What kind of wood did you use?Sorry, it was douglas fir.As far as getting more than two spars out of a 2 x 10. I only got oneeach out of a 2x6. remember you have to leave room for waste. a 2 inchwide board will likely give you a one inch spar and maybe a 1/2" plank.BTW the spars are 4-3/4" tall.Stevee.________________________________________________________________________________
Dean Dayton wrote:> > Just FYI I used 108 board feet in building my Piet to plans> >dimensioned sizes from rough cut lumber from the yard at an expense> of> >about $500 total. If I remeber I started with 6 or 7 2by6by12's> >> >stevee> >> What kind of wood did you use?Sorry, it was douglas fir.As far as getting more than two spars out of a 2 x 10. I only got oneeach out of a 2x6. remember you have to leave room for waste. a 2 inchwide board will likely give you a one inch spar and maybe a 1/2" plank.BTW the spars are 4-3/4" tall.Stevee.________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: Steve Eldredge
writes:>>>>>I think the price of sitka spruce ought to be compared to the price >of>>substitutes. >>When I built my Piet the second time, spruce was no more costly. >JimV.>>I'm curious what led up to this statement. Are you saying that you >used a good >grade of Douglas Fir and had problems with it? >Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com>>--------------------------------------------------------->Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com>--------------------------------------------------------->No, the first wing was made of hemlock (ribs) and sitka spruce (spars). Iflew it into the side of a building and it broke. Had to build anotherwing and things. I laminated my spars this time, using white pine andspruce. Cost more, but like them better. Used CWP (clear white pine) forthe ribs. Cwp is as much per bd ft as spruce. ________________________________________________________________________________
writes:>>>>>I think the price of sitka spruce ought to be compared to the price >of>>substitutes. >>When I built my Piet the second time, spruce was no more costly. >JimV.>>I'm curious what led up to this statement. Are you saying that you >used a good >grade of Douglas Fir and had problems with it? >Dean Dayton - deandayton(at)hotmail.com>>--------------------------------------------------------->Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com>--------------------------------------------------------->No, the first wing was made of hemlock (ribs) and sitka spruce (spars). Iflew it into the side of a building and it broke. Had to build anotherwing and things. I laminated my spars this time, using white pine andspruce. Cost more, but like them better. Used CWP (clear white pine) forthe ribs. Cwp is as much per bd ft as spruce. ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: JGreenlee(at)aol.com
> > > >So a 14ft plank for 55 bucks can be sawn into 4 spars??!! Such a deal!> >I gotta look into this a little more. > > OK, you're forcing me to be correct here. I just checked my receipt and in fact> I paid $4.60 per foot for 2X8 (planed, not rough sawn). I don't remember Piet> spar dimensions, can you get more than one from a 2X8? Sorry for the > inaccuracy, I bought enough for the tail surfaces 6 months ago and it's been> waiting for me to get enough time to make the first cut.> > >> >Is it easy to spot compression failures in fir? > The pictures I have seen of wood that has compression failures seems distinctive> (if you examine the wood closely). I have not seen any actual wood with > compression failure. I'll probably try to put together some kind of a test rig> before I get too far along.> > >And how the heck do you> >know it's sitka spruce or douglas fir aside from taking their word >for it?> I went to the library and found a book with a good description and picture. > Douglas Fir has a distinctive color (reddish) and grain (very straight).> > Please don't take any of the above statements as advice. I am not an expert,I > am only giving you my interpretation of the research I have done.> I expect a 2x8 would give you at least one spar and a bunch of longerons and capstrips for about 65 bucks. A fraction of the cost of certified spruce.Still a deal!I read some good advice about testing for compression failures recently that said to save all the rip cut scraps and break them upevery few inches to make sure they splinter all along their length. Anyclean perpendicular breaks indicate compression failure. A handy backupto visual inspection.There was a Taylor craft up here that crashed when the wing folded upbecause the spar failed due to a compression failure in the spar. DOT speculated that the airplane had groundlooped and dug a wingtip. The bending load applied at the wingtip caused a compression failure inthe spar just outboard of the strut attachment. The spar had a break through its upper half that looked in the photo like it was madeby a hand saw. It took some hours before it let go, and was missedduring inspections since it was nearly impossible to spot the tiny littlelines across the grain though an inspection hole.Just got off the phone with a marine supplier here in Toronto who told me he has given up on buying douglas fir because they can't get it in marine grade. There's lots of it but it's all shipped outof country, mostly to Japan. All they can get here is the junk.He had sitka spruce select 2x6s for $12 can/ft. About half the pricefor a certified spar plank, assuming you could cut them to 3/4 x 5 andget 2 spars.So may be worth a trip south to get wood when I get around to building.John Kahn________________________________________________________________________________
> > > >So a 14ft plank for 55 bucks can be sawn into 4 spars??!! Such a deal!> >I gotta look into this a little more. > > OK, you're forcing me to be correct here. I just checked my receipt and in fact> I paid $4.60 per foot for 2X8 (planed, not rough sawn). I don't remember Piet> spar dimensions, can you get more than one from a 2X8? Sorry for the > inaccuracy, I bought enough for the tail surfaces 6 months ago and it's been> waiting for me to get enough time to make the first cut.> > >> >Is it easy to spot compression failures in fir? > The pictures I have seen of wood that has compression failures seems distinctive> (if you examine the wood closely). I have not seen any actual wood with > compression failure. I'll probably try to put together some kind of a test rig> before I get too far along.> > >And how the heck do you> >know it's sitka spruce or douglas fir aside from taking their word >for it?> I went to the library and found a book with a good description and picture. > Douglas Fir has a distinctive color (reddish) and grain (very straight).> > Please don't take any of the above statements as advice. I am not an expert,I > am only giving you my interpretation of the research I have done.> I expect a 2x8 would give you at least one spar and a bunch of longerons and capstrips for about 65 bucks. A fraction of the cost of certified spruce.Still a deal!I read some good advice about testing for compression failures recently that said to save all the rip cut scraps and break them upevery few inches to make sure they splinter all along their length. Anyclean perpendicular breaks indicate compression failure. A handy backupto visual inspection.There was a Taylor craft up here that crashed when the wing folded upbecause the spar failed due to a compression failure in the spar. DOT speculated that the airplane had groundlooped and dug a wingtip. The bending load applied at the wingtip caused a compression failure inthe spar just outboard of the strut attachment. The spar had a break through its upper half that looked in the photo like it was madeby a hand saw. It took some hours before it let go, and was missedduring inspections since it was nearly impossible to spot the tiny littlelines across the grain though an inspection hole.Just got off the phone with a marine supplier here in Toronto who told me he has given up on buying douglas fir because they can't get it in marine grade. There's lots of it but it's all shipped outof country, mostly to Japan. All they can get here is the junk.He had sitka spruce select 2x6s for $12 can/ft. About half the pricefor a certified spar plank, assuming you could cut them to 3/4 x 5 andget 2 spars.So may be worth a trip south to get wood when I get around to building.John Kahn________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Please help to check wood.
Original Posted By: Gary McArthur
And how the heck do you >know it's sitka spruce or douglas fir aside from taking their word >for it? I went to the library and found a book with a good description and picture. Douglas Fir has a distinctive color (reddish) and grain (very straight). >>They have a different smell when you cut them....________________________________________________________________________________
And how the heck do you >know it's sitka spruce or douglas fir aside from taking their word >for it? I went to the library and found a book with a good description and picture. Douglas Fir has a distinctive color (reddish) and grain (very straight). >>They have a different smell when you cut them....________________________________________________________________________________