Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: Ken Beanlands
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Adjustable lift strut attachments>The machine is on the gear and I have been following the discussion on>the 3/4 X 2 1/2 inch lift strut with great interest. Along these lines,>I am wanting to install adjustable fittings on each strut to allow>dihedral adjustment and wash out adjustment (also to make flight tuning>easier).>>The question is " what are folks using to do this?" I look at the>catelogues and see prices starting at $100 per attachment. With the>scrounging, experimental expertise out there in the Piet community,>someone must have a better way. Care to share it?>>On the gear with the centre wing section and wires on, the machine is>starting to look impressive. I also am in the process of tearing apart a>Corvair motor, 1997 vintage.>Best regards,>-=Ian=->>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Ian Holland
Ian; As we "speak", I am at the exact same spot with my Scout. I too balked atthe cost of the threaded/forked ends vs the plan version. I have decided tomake extra fittings at the wing attach points in case the plane doesn't flyas built. The extra fittings just won't have the holes predrilled. It mighttake two sets of undrilled spares to get it to fly right but that is mychosen method, IE: sticking to the plans...........Earl Myers-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Michael Cuy
On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Ian Holland wrote:> The machine is on the gear and I have been following the discussion on> the 3/4 X 2 1/2 inch lift strut with great interest. Along these lines,> I am wanting to install adjustable fittings on each strut to allow> dihedral adjustment and wash out adjustment (also to make flight tuning> easier). > > The question is " what are folks using to do this?" I look at the> catelogues and see prices starting at $100 per attachment. With the> scrounging, experimental expertise out there in the Piet community,> someone must have a better way. Care to share it?> > -=Ian=-> This may not be the place to try and save money. Keep in mind the resultsof a failure at this point. I bought tne weldable barrel fittings from ASSand used a pair of Piper fork ends I had from another plane. With thelight weight Piets, you can probably get away with the cut thread forkends, but I'd still feel better with rolled thread. There was a Piper ADout on these fork ends requiring them to be replaced with rolled thread soyou may be able to get some cheap cut thread forks from your local AME.Ken.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Warren Shoun
Ian- Shop around for the real-mc coy if you can in eitherthe Wicks or ACS catalog. If memory serves me correctlyWicks had the weldable barrels for 1/2 the cost of ACS. (or vice-versa)If you want to save money just make the back struts adjustable......butit sure is nice to have all four with fork end fittings.PS- this won't be cheap to do if you choose it but it's the way Aeronca,Piper, and the rest have been flying for years. (by the way, direct fromthe plans is another perfectly acceptable way to do the struts......you'd just need to setup the wings exactly as you want them with dihedral andwashout and drill like Earl M. said at the top end of your strap fittingsand whala)Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Earl Myers
The machine is on the gear and I have been following the discussion onthe 3/4 X 2 1/2 inch lift strut with great interest. Along these lines,I am wanting to install adjustable fittings on each strut to allowdihedral adjustment and wash out adjustment (also to make flight tuningeasier). The question is " what are folks using to do this?" I look at thecatelogues and see prices starting at $100 per attachment. With thescrounging, experimental expertise out there in the Piet community,someone must have a better way. Care to share it?On the gear with the centre wing section and wires on, the machine isstarting to look impressive. I also am in the process of tearing apart aCorvair motor, 1997 vintage.Best regards,-=Ian=-________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Doug
>On the gear with the centre wing section and wires on, themachine is>starting to look impressive. I also am in the process oftearing apart a>Corvair motor, 1997 vintage.>Best regards,>-=Ian=-Is there a 1997 Corvair? Does Ralph Nadar know about it?Just curiousBill________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By:> Ken Beanlands
A note on the used piper forks,my inspector told me and it is also spelledout in chapter 549(Canada)that any life limited parts,such as piper forksmust conform to the AD,s so you must have a paper trail on them!Even ifused on a homebuilt. Doug

Original Posted By: Warren Shoun
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Adjustable lift strut attachments>Walter,> Thanks for the additional info. This is one reason I looked around foran>alternative. These wheel lugs are 1/1/4" long and have a lot of meat and a>conical shape protecting the threads. I will have to be really sloppy toget>any welding slag into the threads. Would run a close tolerance tap thruafter>welding anyway, just to confirm a good fit.>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: walter evans
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Adjustable lift strut attachments>Thanks a lot!! Now I have to cut out my old barrels and weld in new>ones!!! I couldn't understand why the QC was so poor on those barrels and>the forks would only go in half way. I just figured it would be a LOT>easier to run the tab down through them BEFORE I welded them. In my>defence, there was nothing about this in anything I read, including the>plans.>>The worst part is that I just primed the struts on Tuesday night! You>couldn't have started this thread LAST week, now could you Oh well, at>least I found out about this BEFORE I went flying. I really do appreciate>the warning, I just wish I had known about it sooner. That's what makes>lists like this so good. Who cares if I don'thave a Piet.>>On the fork ends, my understanding of the AD was that it only applied to>heavier A/C like the PA-18, PA-20, PA-22 and so on. The cut threads is>still OK on the lighter J-3, J-4, PA-16/17. You may want to verify this>but I would suspect that the light weight of the Piet would make these>fork ends OK especially if they are only used on the rear strut. I don't>think I would trust the fork end to support the main strut as it will>generally take 2/3 to 3/4 of the flight loads. The rear strut will support>much less.>>Thanks,>Ken.>>On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, walter evans wrote:>>> I have been following the discussion on adjustable lift strutattachments.>> Just wanted to pass along some infro on these from my mentor AP. Whenyou>> buy the weldable forks and "nuts", the female thread in the "nut" must be>> tapped undersize( you can buy taps for this). In other words , the male>> won't screw into the female bafore welding. After welding, the piece is>> tapped out to proper size to remove all scale and crud. If you startwith>> a normal thread, after welding, there is insufficient thread left.>> A friend/builder of his showed him fork sets that he had bought from a>> large supplier,for his Baby Ace project , these threaded nicely before>> welding. The AP condemned them and called the supplier, after that,they>> pulled the lot. He said that sometimes they are tapped incorrectly, andget>> into circulation.>> He showed me the tap, and said most aircraft tool houses carry these, but>> don't list them in catalogs because they don't sell too many. You justhave>> to ask for them.>> I can find out where if anyone is interested.>> walt>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Warren Shoun
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Adjustable lift strut attachments>Ian,> Let me encourage you to just keep an eye out with the aircraft supply>houses for sales and surplus. Several weeks ago, I found a 50# box of>surplus forks at AS&S and bought 8 of the following for $5.00 total.> 3 7/8" long X 1/2" rolled threaded fork. Head is 7/8" wide:>1 3/16" deep slot; hole 5/16" and will accept a tab 3/16" thick. These are>new surplus and are cadmium plated.> Also found some new truck wheel lug nuts that fit perfectly and am>seriously considering welding these in the ends of my struts for fittings,>unless anyone here can talk me out of it.> And yes I did check and they are gone, and the counter guy told me that>they get this kind of stuff in all the time.>Good Luck.>Warren.>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: walter evans
Ian, Let me encourage you to just keep an eye out with the aircraft supplyhouses for sales and surplus. Several weeks ago, I found a 50# box ofsurplus forks at AS&S and bought 8 of the following for $5.00 total. 3 7/8" long X 1/2" rolled threaded fork. Head is 7/8" wide:1 3/16" deep slot; hole 5/16" and will accept a tab 3/16" thick. These arenew surplus and are cadmium plated. Also found some new truck wheel lug nuts that fit perfectly and amseriously considering welding these in the ends of my struts for fittings,unless anyone here can talk me out of it. And yes I did check and they are gone, and the counter guy told me thatthey get this kind of stuff in all the time.Good Luck.Warren.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Warren Shoun
I have been following the discussion on adjustable lift strut attachments.Just wanted to pass along some infro on these from my mentor AP. When youbuy the weldable forks and "nuts", the female thread in the "nut" must betapped undersize( you can buy taps for this). In other words , the malewon't screw into the female bafore welding. After welding, the piece istapped out to proper size to remove all scale and crud. If you start witha normal thread, after welding, there is insufficient thread left. A friend/builder of his showed him fork sets that he had bought from alarge supplier,for his Baby Ace project , these threaded nicely beforewelding. The AP condemned them and called the supplier, after that, theypulled the lot. He said that sometimes they are tapped incorrectly, and getinto circulation.He showed me the tap, and said most aircraft tool houses carry these, butdon't list them in catalogs because they don't sell too many. You just haveto ask for them.I can find out where if anyone is interested.walt-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: walter evans
Walter, Thanks for the additional info. This is one reason I looked around for analternative. These wheel lugs are 1/1/4" long and have a lot of meat and aconical shape protecting the threads. I will have to be really sloppy to getany welding slag into the threads. Would run a close tolerance tap thru afterwelding anyway, just to confirm a good fit.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Warren Shoun
Warren,What I meant was that when you torch weld, the whole piece oxidizes, and youloose material on all surfaces, also on the threads, that can't be replaced.This may not be the case if you tig. you just have to normalize with aflamewalt-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By:> Warren Shoun
WaltGood point. Will check this carefully on a practice piece.Thanks again.Warrenwalter evans wrote:> Warren,> What I meant was that when you torch weld, the whole piece oxidizes, and you> loose material on all surfaces, also on the threads, that can't be replaced.> This may not be the case if you tig. you just have to normalize with a> flame> walt> -----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Ian Holland
Probably the same as a 1997 Continental or Lycombing...wishful thinking.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Warren Shoun
Earl;Thanks for the input. I kind of figured this as an option, but thoughtit would be nice to "twist in" the rigging, however, not at the pricefor the new stuff.Doug, Ken, Mike; I will continue to look at the options. I don't consider the used and nolonger certified parts as part of that option. Even if the AD's allowedit, there is something wrong with my mental picture of a part of theplane that is not suitable for a Piet that is very similar to theproblem ones. Down can be a long way, and a short trip.Best regards,-=Ian=-________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Mike Bell
>Warren,>What I meant was that when you torch weld, the whole piece oxidizes, and you>loose material on all surfaces, also on the threads, that can't be replaced.>This may not be the case if you tig. you just have to normalize with a>flame>waltWalt/Warren-I TIG welded everything on my Piet including those barells. (then normalizedwith a torch) I did just as Warren said and tapped out those threads after all was cold. They were discolored on the interior threads but no scale-prettyclean really, but still req'd tapping. Mike C. Warren,What I meant was that when you torch weld, the whole piece oxidizes,and youloose material on all surfaces, also on the threads, that can't bereplaced.This may not be the case if you tig. you just have to normalizewith aflamewaltWalt/Warren-I TIG welded everything on my Piet including those barells. (thennormalizedwith a torch) I did just as Warren said and tapped out thosethreads after all was cold. They were discolored on the interior threads but noscale- prettyclean really, but still req'd tapping. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: walter evans
Thanks a lot!! Now I have to cut out my old barrels and weld in newones!!! I couldn't understand why the QC was so poor on those barrels andthe forks would only go in half way. I just figured it would be a LOTeasier to run the tab down through them BEFORE I welded them. In mydefence, there was nothing about this in anything I read, including theplans.The worst part is that I just primed the struts on Tuesday night! Youcouldn't have started this thread LAST week, now could you Oh well, atleast I found out about this BEFORE I went flying. I really do appreciatethe warning, I just wish I had known about it sooner. That's what makeslists like this so good. Who cares if I don'thave a Piet. On the fork ends, my understanding of the AD was that it only applied toheavier A/C like the PA-18, PA-20, PA-22 and so on. The cut threads isstill OK on the lighter J-3, J-4, PA-16/17. You may want to verify thisbut I would suspect that the light weight of the Piet would make thesefork ends OK especially if they are only used on the rear strut. I don'tthink I would trust the fork end to support the main strut as it willgenerally take 2/3 to 3/4 of the flight loads. The rear strut will supportmuch less.Thanks,Ken.On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, walter evans wrote:> I have been following the discussion on adjustable lift strut attachments.> Just wanted to pass along some infro on these from my mentor AP. When you> buy the weldable forks and "nuts", the female thread in the "nut" must be> tapped undersize( you can buy taps for this). In other words , the male> won't screw into the female bafore welding. After welding, the piece is> tapped out to proper size to remove all scale and crud. If you start with> a normal thread, after welding, there is insufficient thread left.> A friend/builder of his showed him fork sets that he had bought from a> large supplier,for his Baby Ace project , these threaded nicely before> welding. The AP condemned them and called the supplier, after that, they> pulled the lot. He said that sometimes they are tapped incorrectly, and get> into circulation.> He showed me the tap, and said most aircraft tool houses carry these, but> don't list them in catalogs because they don't sell too many. You just have> to ask for them.> I can find out where if anyone is interested.> walt________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Ken Beanlands
Ken,Just remember that what my AP told me comes from a guy who is a licenced APwho's been doing this alot of years, and he tends to be a perfectionist todetail and safety. Who can say what percentage of safety factor is figuredinto the certified aircraft. I just wanted to pass along something I learned , that I didn't know 6 mo.ago. You should check with some AP's that you can find, and get theirinput.It's a strange building technique , but kinda makes sense when you thinkabout it.walt-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: bwm
Ian Holland wrote:> > The machine is on the gear and I have been following the discussion on> the 3/4 X 2 1/2 inch lift strut with great interest. Along these lines,> I am wanting to install adjustable fittings on each strut to allow> dihedral adjustment and wash out adjustment (also to make flight tuning> easier).> > The question is " what are folks using to do this?" I look at the> catelogues and see prices starting at $100 per attachment. With the> scrounging, experimental expertise out there in the Piet community,> someone must have a better way. Care to share it?> > On the gear with the centre wing section and wires on, the machine is> starting to look impressive. I also am in the process of tearing apart a> Corvair motor, 1997 vintage.> Best regards,> -=Ian=-Ian:I've got about six strut forks ,they are the cut type but a heck of alot of Cubs have flown on cut threads over the years ( they look likethey are in fine shape.) Got them from my Uncle who was a Piper Cubbuilder years ago . I'll only need two of them. If you have a hardtime finding what you need, E-Mail me and I'll let you have a couple ifyou need em. I'm scrounging for cables, pulleys, bungees etc now too.Cheers, Bert E-Mail: BWM(at)planttel.net________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: michael list
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Adjustable lift strut attachments>via Mercury MTS v1.44 (NDS))>Message-ID: >>Ken,> You can use a standard one.> When I was buying my taps, I chatted with an old guy at King Bolt nearwhere I>live and learned a bit about tap and die. Some are manufactured to closer>matching fit than others, so you may want to dress up both your lug andyour>fork. Just check carefully that it doesn't remove too much material.>Warren>>Ken Beanlands wrote:>>> I'm quite sure that this is correct and it does make perfect sense in>> hindsight. I'm just a little annoyed with myself for not figuring it out>> sooner. At the very least, I could have lucked into it by waiting to tap>> after I welded. DOUUUUGGGHHH!>>>> Just to clarify, is a special, close tolerence tap required to finish the>> tapping, or is that what they use for the initial tap? In other words, do>> I have to buy another tap or can I use a standerd one?>>>> Thanks,>> Ken>>>> On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, walter evans wrote:>>>> > Ken,>> > Just remember that what my AP told me comes from a guy who is alicenced AP>> > who's been doing this alot of years, and he tends to be a perfectionistto>> > detail and safety. Who can say what percentage of safety factor isfigured>> > into the certified aircraft.>> > I just wanted to pass along something I learned , that I didn't know6 mo.>> > ago. You should check with some AP's that you can find, and get their>> > input.>> > It's a strange building technique , but kinda makes sense when youthink>> > about it.>> > walt>> >>>>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Warren Shoun
I'm quite sure that this is correct and it does make perfect sense inhindsight. I'm just a little annoyed with myself for not figuring it outsooner. At the very least, I could have lucked into it by waiting to tapafter I welded. DOUUUUGGGHHH! Just to clarify, is a special, close tolerence tap required to finish thetapping, or is that what they use for the initial tap? In other words, doI have to buy another tap or can I use a standerd one?Thanks,KenOn Thu, 29 Apr 1999, walter evans wrote:> Ken,> Just remember that what my AP told me comes from a guy who is a licenced AP> who's been doing this alot of years, and he tends to be a perfectionist to> detail and safety. Who can say what percentage of safety factor is figured> into the certified aircraft.> I just wanted to pass along something I learned , that I didn't know 6 mo.> ago. You should check with some AP's that you can find, and get their> input.> It's a strange building technique , but kinda makes sense when you think> about it.> walt> ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Brent Reed
Ken, You can use a standard one. When I was buying my taps, I chatted with an old guy at King Bolt near whereIlive and learned a bit about tap and die. Some are manufactured to closermatching fit than others, so you may want to dress up both your lug and yourfork. Just check carefully that it doesn't remove too much material.WarrenKen Beanlands wrote:> I'm quite sure that this is correct and it does make perfect sense in> hindsight. I'm just a little annoyed with myself for not figuring it out> sooner. At the very least, I could have lucked into it by waiting to tap> after I welded. DOUUUUGGGHHH!>> Just to clarify, is a special, close tolerence tap required to finish the> tapping, or is that what they use for the initial tap? In other words, do> I have to buy another tap or can I use a standerd one?>> Thanks,> Ken>> On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, walter evans wrote:>> > Ken,> > Just remember that what my AP told me comes from a guy who is a licenced AP> > who's been doing this alot of years, and he tends to be a perfectionist to> > detail and safety. Who can say what percentage of safety factor is figured> > into the certified aircraft.> > I just wanted to pass along something I learned , that I didn't know 6 mo.> > ago. You should check with some AP's that you can find, and get their> > input.> > It's a strange building technique , but kinda makes sense when you think> > about it.> > walt> >>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Warren Shoun
These are called 1A, 2A & 3A fits......-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: KatyBill(at)aol.com
pls delete me from this discussion group.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Michael King
pls delete me from this discussion group.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: RGASKIN
When welding nuts, be sure to sand off all Cadmium be for applying heat. Do notinhale cadmium gas/smoke!Warren Shoun wrote:> Ian,> Let me encourage you to just keep an eye out with the aircraft supply> houses for sales and surplus. Several weeks ago, I found a 50# box of> surplus forks at AS&S and bought 8 of the following for $5.00 total.> 3 7/8" long X 1/2" rolled threaded fork. Head is 7/8" wide:> 1 3/16" deep slot; hole 5/16" and will accept a tab 3/16" thick. These are> new surplus and are cadmium plated.> Also found some new truck wheel lug nuts that fit perfectly and am> seriously considering welding these in the ends of my struts for fittings,> unless anyone here can talk me out of it.> And yes I did check and they are gone, and the counter guy told me that> they get this kind of stuff in all the time.> Good Luck.> Warren.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Doug Sheets
On my struts I used s.a.e.fine thread allthread nuts. these nuts are 21/2" long, I mild a groove the lenght of nut and welded a piece of .0904130 down each side, this was my weld barrel . Next I got the forkendsfrom a hotrod magazine ( 1/2" rolled threads rod ends for model A Ford)at a total cost of $6.00 per unit.I gave one to a friend of mine that owns a machine shop, I asked him todestroy it for me. He brought it back a few days latter and saidtheres no reason for him to tear up his macherey on it, so we believeits strong enough for the Piet.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By:> Eli or Robert or Teresa Bozeman
I would be interested to find out where you obtained the forks andnuts,sounds very interesting indeed! Doug

Original Posted By: Ted Brousseau
Dear Sirs,Can anyone tell me what wing wash out should be - or could be - on a GN-1with no dihedral? I'm having a time finding anything on this. I'dappreciate your help.Larry Pasley> Ian Holland wrote:> > > > The machine is on the gear and I have been following the discussion on> > the 3/4 X 2 1/2 inch lift strut with great interest. Along these lines,> > I am wanting to install adjustable fittings on each strut to allow> > dihedral adjustment and wash out adjustment (also to make flight tuning> > easier).> > > > The question is " what are folks using to do this?" I look at the> > catelogues and see prices starting at $100 per attachment. With the> > scrounging, experimental expertise out there in the Piet community,> > someone must have a better way. Care to share it?> > > > On the gear with the centre wing section and wires on, the machine is> > starting to look impressive. I also am in the process of tearing apart a> > Corvair motor, 1997 vintage.> > Best regards,> > -=Ian=-> > Ian:> > I've got about six strut forks ,they are the cut type but a heck of a> lot of Cubs have flown on cut threads over the years ( they look like> they are in fine shape.) Got them from my Uncle who was a Piper Cub> builder years ago . I'll only need two of them. If you have a hard> time finding what you need, E-Mail me and I'll let you have a couple if> you need em. I'm scrounging for cables, pulleys, bungees etc now too.> > Cheers, > > Bert E-Mail: BWM(at)planttel.net> ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: robert hensarling
Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Adjustable lift strut attachments>>>>> Do they really have to be streamlined. I've noticed several>> light planes that>> simply use round tube. Does it really make much difference? This is a>> question, not an opinion;-)>>>> Dean Dayton>> dayton(at)netwalk.com>>>> Ken Beanlands wrote:>>>> > Now, I just have to>> > figure out how to streamline them without breaking the bank>> or getting too>> > heavy.>> tube fineness ratio resistance ratio >________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC"
I finally got in the replacement barrel ends for my struts and replacedthe old ones. You may recall that I had tapped what I though were poorquality threads in the barrels before I installed the original set only tofind out that this tight thread is done on purpose . It accomadates theexpansion that occurs due to welding. I welded them in on the weekend andran the tap down last night. Before I welded them in, there was no way toinstall the fork ends. After I finished, ine was still very tight andneeded the tap. The second had, indeed, expanded to the point where therod end would fit with just a little persuasion. I didn't persuade it toomuch and instead ran the tap down to clean up the thread. It was anexpensive lesson as the barrels cost about $50 each, but I feel a lotbetter about them now. I also bought 2 new, rolled thread, magna-fluxedrod ends at about $50 each as well.Fortunately, I was able to afford the new parts because I substitutedround tube struts in place of streamlined stock. Now, I just have tofigure out how to streamline them without breaking the bank or getting tooheavy. My current plan is to hot wire some foam blocks to form thefairing. I can then attach them to the strut and cover with fiberglass.BTW, aircraft lock wire works great for hot wire cutting. It has enoughresistance to get some good heat going.Ken________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Ken Beanlands
Duane has round tubing and has over 100hours and hasn't fallen out of thesky. I haven't streamlined my D-tube aluminum struts and still go flyingregularly. I guess my point is that drag reduction on the piet is kind ofan oxy-moron. Asthetics is the bigger consideration.SteveeSteve EldredgeIT ServicesBrigham Young University> -----Original Message-----> dean dayton> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 12:16 PM> To: Pietenpol Discussion> Subject: Re: Adjustable lift strut attachments>>> Do they really have to be streamlined. I've noticed several> light planes that> simply use round tube. Does it really make much difference? This is a> question, not an opinion;-)>> Dean Dayton> dayton(at)netwalk.com>> Ken Beanlands wrote:>> > Now, I just have to> > figure out how to streamline them without breaking the bank> or getting too> > heavy.>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
Do they really have to be streamlined. I've noticed several light planes thatsimply use round tube. Does it really make much difference? This is aquestion, not an opinion;-)Dean Daytondayton(at)netwalk.comKen Beanlands wrote:> Now, I just have to> figure out how to streamline them without breaking the bank or getting too> heavy.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: walter evans
Ken, mind sharing where you got the barrels and forks from? Also, thetube diameter and thickness along with the rational for it?Thanks,-=Ian=-________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: dannymac
I was thinking about how to streamline round tube with foam, and decided that I would glue some sandpaper around a piece of round tubing, then file the grouve in the foam with the sandpaper covered tube. then once the foam is sanded out, and fitted and glued to the tube, I would sand the foam to the streamline shape on the outside, and cover with fabric.ocb>From: Ken Beanlands >Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Subject: Re: Adjustable lift strut attachments>Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 08:54:26 -0600 (MDT)>>I finally got in the replacement barrel ends for my struts and replaced>the old ones. You may recall that I had tapped what I though were poor>quality threads in the barrels before I installed the original set only to>find out that this tight thread is done on purpose . It accomadates the>expansion that occurs due to welding. I welded them in on the weekend and>ran the tap down last night. Before I welded them in, there was no way to>install the fork ends. After I finished, ine was still very tight and>needed the tap. The second had, indeed, expanded to the point where the>rod end would fit with just a little persuasion. I didn't persuade it too>much and instead ran the tap down to clean up the thread. It was an>expensive lesson as the barrels cost about $50 each, but I feel a lot>better about them now. I also bought 2 new, rolled thread, magna-fluxed>rod ends at about $50 each as well.>>Fortunately, I was able to afford the new parts because I substituted>round tube struts in place of streamlined stock. Now, I just have to>figure out how to streamline them without breaking the bank or getting too>heavy. My current plan is to hot wire some foam blocks to form the>fairing. I can then attach them to the strut and cover with fiberglass.>BTW, aircraft lock wire works great for hot wire cutting. It has enough>resistance to get some good heat going.>>Ken>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: steve(at)byu.edu
I assume that whom ever has used foam that you have used fiberglass on thefoam before applying fabric. Surely the foam would not stand the fabriccements or the heat. Seems like wood would be easier. Am I missingsomething?Steve EProvo UT.PS. Yesterday was so nice I had to extend my lunch for an hour. Honest Iwas back to work on time, just 1000' too high...SE> -----Original Message-----> Behalf Of oil> can> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 9:38 PM> To: Pietenpol Discussion> Subject: Re: Adjustable lift strut attachments>>> I was thinking about how to streamline round tube with foam,> and decided> that I would glue some sandpaper around a piece of round> tubing, then file> the grouve in the foam with the sandpaper covered tube. then> once the foam> is sanded out, and fitted and glued to the tube, I would sand> the foam to> the streamline shape on the outside, and cover with fabric.>> ocb>>> >From: Ken Beanlands > >Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion > >To: Pietenpol Discussion > >Subject: Re: Adjustable lift strut attachments> >Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 08:54:26 -0600 (MDT)> >> >I finally got in the replacement barrel ends for my struts> and replaced> >the old ones. You may recall that I had tapped what I though> were poor> >quality threads in the barrels before I installed the> original set only to> >find out that this tight thread is done on purpose . It> accomadates the> >expansion that occurs due to welding. I welded them in on> the weekend and> >ran the tap down last night. Before I welded them in, there> was no way to> >install the fork ends. After I finished, ine was still very tight and> >needed the tap. The second had, indeed, expanded to the> point where the> >rod end would fit with just a little persuasion. I didn't> persuade it too> >much and instead ran the tap down to clean up the thread. It was an> >expensive lesson as the barrels cost about $50 each, but I feel a lot> >better about them now. I also bought 2 new, rolled thread,> magna-fluxed> >rod ends at about $50 each as well.> >> >Fortunately, I was able to afford the new parts because I substituted> >round tube struts in place of streamlined stock. Now, I just have to> >figure out how to streamline them without breaking the bank> or getting too> >heavy. My current plan is to hot wire some foam blocks to form the> >fairing. I can then attach them to the strut and cover with> fiberglass.> >BTW, aircraft lock wire works great for hot wire cutting. It> has enough> >resistance to get some good heat going.> >> >Ken> >> >> >> >>>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC"
Actually, you would have to use fiberglass for 2 reasons. First, the foamprobably won't stand up to the covering chemicals. Second, struts arecommonly used for ground handling. People push the plane forward by thestruts. It may be fine that YOU know not to push on the struts, but willthe other people that may have occassion to move your plane know it?Balsa was my first choice until I priced it out. It will run about $400CDN to get enough to cover it with! Besides, with a good wire foam cutter,you can cut the foam cores in an evening, complete with cut out for thestrut. Fiberglassing them to the strut is not that much harder. I'll besure and give a full report, including pics, when I'm done.KenOn Wed, 12 May 1999 steve(at)byu.edu wrote:> I assume that whom ever has used foam that you have used fiberglass on the> foam before applying fabric. Surely the foam would not stand the fabric> cements or the heat. Seems like wood would be easier. Am I missing> something?> > Steve E> Provo UT.> > PS. Yesterday was so nice I had to extend my lunch for an hour. Honest I> was back to work on time, just 1000' too high...> > SE> > > -----Original Message-----> > Behalf Of oil> > can> > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 9:38 PM> > To: Pietenpol Discussion> > Subject: Re: Adjustable lift strut attachments> >> >> > I was thinking about how to streamline round tube with foam,> > and decided> > that I would glue some sandpaper around a piece of round> > tubing, then file> > the grouve in the foam with the sandpaper covered tube. then> > once the foam> > is sanded out, and fitted and glued to the tube, I would sand> > the foam to> > the streamline shape on the outside, and cover with fabric.> >> > ocb> >> >> >> > >From: Ken Beanlands > > >Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion > > >To: Pietenpol Discussion > > >Subject: Re: Adjustable lift strut attachments> > >Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 08:54:26 -0600 (MDT)> > >> > >I finally got in the replacement barrel ends for my struts> > and replaced> > >the old ones. You may recall that I had tapped what I though> > were poor> > >quality threads in the barrels before I installed the> > original set only to> > >find out that this tight thread is done on purpose . It> > accomadates the> > >expansion that occurs due to welding. I welded them in on> > the weekend and> > >ran the tap down last night. Before I welded them in, there> > was no way to> > >install the fork ends. After I finished, ine was still very tight and> > >needed the tap. The second had, indeed, expanded to the> > point where the> > >rod end would fit with just a little persuasion. I didn't> > persuade it too> > >much and instead ran the tap down to clean up the thread. It was an> > >expensive lesson as the barrels cost about $50 each, but I feel a lot> > >better about them now. I also bought 2 new, rolled thread,> > magna-fluxed> > >rod ends at about $50 each as well.> > >> > >Fortunately, I was able to afford the new parts because I substituted> > >round tube struts in place of streamlined stock. Now, I just have to> > >figure out how to streamline them without breaking the bank> > or getting too> > >heavy. My current plan is to hot wire some foam blocks to form the> > >fairing. I can then attach them to the strut and cover with> > fiberglass.> > >BTW, aircraft lock wire works great for hot wire cutting. It> > has enough> > >resistance to get some good heat going.> > >> > >Ken> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Ken Beanlands
Be carefull about covering your round struts. I makes inspection difficult.Make sure it is rust protected before the covering, if I'm not mistaken, Ibelieve Brian Kenny found some mild corrosion on his strut after removingthe covering. Brian can confirm this. He did not replace the streamlinecovering.Domenic ----------________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: steve(at)byu.edu
The barrels and forks came from Wicks and cost about $50 USD each ($200for the set). Since I'm building a Christavia, not a Piet, my dimensions etc will notapply. However, The front strut is 1-5/8"X0.083" and the rear is1"x0.095". It was easy to get these numbers. I wanted the struts to be atleast as strong as the originals. The struts take loads in two modes,tension for possitive G and compression for negative.The tensile strength was easy. All you have to do is come up with a strutwith the same cross-sectional area; ie. the same amount of material. Thatcan easily be done by comparing weight per foot between 4130 streamlinedstruts and round. Compression is a bit more complicated. The geometry determines that incompression, these struts will fail due to buckling. On the streamlinedstruts, they will buckle across the minor axis as it is a lot weaker thanthe major axis. So, by matching the minor axis diameter and with theheavier wall thickness, the buckling strength will be about the same. Thisactually took a bit of research as there was no mechanical specs on thestreamlined tubing. It was gathered by looking at other approximateshapes.Ken.On Tue, 11 May 1999, Ian Holland wrote:> Ken, mind sharing where you got the barrels and forks from? Also, the> tube diameter and thickness along with the rational for it?> Thanks,> -=Ian=-> ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Doug
I think this has been done by Aircraft Spruce in their catalog. They have aconversion table on the steel page.Steve EldredgeIT ServicesBrigham Young University> -----Original Message-----> Behalf Of Ken> Beanlands> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 10:56 AM> To: Pietenpol Discussion> Subject: Re: Adjustable lift strut attachments>>> The barrels and forks came from Wicks and cost about $50 USD> each ($200> for the set).>> Since I'm building a Christavia, not a Piet, my dimensions> etc will not> apply. However, The front strut is 1-5/8"X0.083" and the rear is> 1"x0.095". It was easy to get these numbers. I wanted the> struts to be at> least as strong as the originals. The struts take loads in two modes,> tension for possitive G and compression for negative.>> The tensile strength was easy. All you have to do is come up> with a strut> with the same cross-sectional area; ie. the same amount of> material. That> can easily be done by comparing weight per foot between 4130> streamlined> struts and round.>> Compression is a bit more complicated. The geometry determines that in> compression, these struts will fail due to buckling. On the> streamlined> struts, they will buckle across the minor axis as it is a lot> weaker than> the major axis. So, by matching the minor axis diameter and with the> heavier wall thickness, the buckling strength will be about> the same. This> actually took a bit of research as there was no mechanical> specs on the> streamlined tubing. It was gathered by looking at other approximate> shapes.>> Ken.>> On Tue, 11 May 1999, Ian Holland wrote:>> > Ken, mind sharing where you got the barrels and forks from?> Also, the> > tube diameter and thickness along with the rational for it?> > Thanks,> > -=Ian=-> >>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: steve(at)byu.edu
-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: arkiesacres(at)juno.com
> > On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Ian Holland wrote:> > > The machine is on the gear and I have been following the discussion on> > the 3/4 X 2 1/2 inch lift strut with great interest. Along these lines,> > I am wanting to install adjustable fittings on each strut to allow> > dihedral adjustment and wash out adjustment (also to make flight tuning> > easier). > > > > The question is " what are folks using to do this?" I look at the> > catelogues and see prices starting at $100 per attachment. With the> > scrounging, experimental expertise out there in the Piet community,> > someone must have a better way. Care to share it?> > > > -=Ian=-> > > > This may not be the place to try and save money. Keep in mind the results> of a failure at this point. I bought tne weldable barrel fittings fromASS> and used a pair of Piper fork ends I had from another plane. With the> light weight Piets, you can probably get away with the cut thread fork> ends, but I'd still feel better with rolled thread. There was a Piper AD> out on these fork ends requiring them to be replaced with rolled threadso> you may be able to get some cheap cut thread forks from your local AME.> > Ken.> > > ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Michael King
> Subject: Re: Adjustable lift strut attachments>> >Walter,> > Thanks for the additional info. This is one reason I looked around for> an> >alternative. These wheel lugs are 1/1/4" long and have a lot of meat and a> >conical shape protecting the threads. I will have to be really sloppy to> get> >any welding slag into the threads. Would run a close tolerance tap thru> after> >welding anyway, just to confirm a good fit.> >> >> >> >________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Doug
> > > On my struts I used s.a.e.fine thread allthread nuts. these nuts are 2> 1/2" long, I mild a groove the lenght of nut and welded a piece of .090> 4130 down each side, this was my weld barrel . Next I got the forkends> from a hotrod magazine ( 1/2" rolled threads rod ends for model A Ford)> at a total cost of $6.00 per unit.> I gave one to a friend of mine that owns a machine shop, I asked him to> destroy it for me. He brought it back a few days latter and said> theres no reason for him to tear up his macherey on it, so we believe> its strong enough for the Piet.> > ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: RGASKIN
Actually, you would have to use fiberglass for 2 reasons. First, the foamprobably won't stand up to the covering chemicals. Second, struts arecommonly used for ground handling. People push the plane forward by thestruts. It may be fine that YOU know not to push on the struts, but willthe other people that may have occassion to move your plane know it?Balsa was my first choice until I priced it out. It will run about $400CDN to get enough to cover it with! Besides, with a good wire foam cutter,you can cut the foam cores in an evening, complete with cut out for thestrut. Fiberglassing them to the strut is not that much harder. I'll besure and give a full report, including pics, when I'm done.KenOn Wed, 12 May 1999 steve(at)byu.edu wrote:> I assume that whom ever has used foam that you have used fiberglass on the> foam before applying fabric. Surely the foam would not stand the fabric> cements or the heat. Seems like wood would be easier. Am I missing> something?>> Steve E> Provo UT.>> PS. Yesterday was so nice I had to extend my lunch for an hour. Honest I> was back to work on time, just 1000' too high...>> SE>> > -----Original Message-----> > Behalf Of oil> > can> > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 9:38 PM> > To: Pietenpol Discussion> > Subject: Re: Adjustable lift strut attachments> >> >> > I was thinking about how to streamline round tube with foam,> > and decided> > that I would glue some sandpaper around a piece of round> > tubing, then file> > the grouve in the foam with the sandpaper covered tube. then> > once the foam> > is sanded out, and fitted and glued to the tube, I would sand> > the foam to> > the streamline shape on the outside, and cover with fabric.> >> > ocb> >> >> >> > >From: Ken Beanlands > > >Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion > > >To: Pietenpol Discussion > > >Subject: Re: Adjustable lift strut attachments> > >Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 08:54:26 -0600 (MDT)> > >> > >I finally got in the replacement barrel ends for my struts> > and replaced> > >the old ones. You may recall that I had tapped what I though> > were poor> > >quality threads in the barrels before I installed the> > original set only to> > >find out that this tight thread is done on purpose . It> > accomadates the> > >expansion that occurs due to welding. I welded them in on> > the weekend and> > >ran the tap down last night. Before I welded them in, there> > was no way to> > >install the fork ends. After I finished, ine was still very tight and> > >needed the tap. The second had, indeed, expanded to the> > point where the> > >rod end would fit with just a little persuasion. I didn't> > persuade it too> > >much and instead ran the tap down to clean up the thread. It was an> > >expensive lesson as the barrels cost about $50 each, but I feel a lot> > >better about them now. I also bought 2 new, rolled thread,> > magna-fluxed> > >rod ends at about $50 each as well.> > >> > >Fortunately, I was able to afford the new parts because I substituted> > >round tube struts in place of streamlined stock. Now, I just have to> > >figure out how to streamline them without breaking the bank> > or getting too> > >heavy. My current plan is to hot wire some foam blocks to form the> > >fairing. I can then attach them to the strut and cover with> > fiberglass.> > >BTW, aircraft lock wire works great for hot wire cutting. It> > has enough> > >resistance to get some good heat going.> > >> > >Ken> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Ken Beanlands
> > Actually, you would have to use fiberglass for 2 reasons. First, the foam> probably won't stand up to the covering chemicals. Second, struts are> commonly used for ground handling. People push the plane forward by the> struts. It may be fine that YOU know not to push on the struts, but will> the other people that may have occassion to move your plane know it?> > Balsa was my first choice until I priced it out. It will run about $400> CDN to get enough to cover it with! Besides, with a good wire foam cutter,> you can cut the foam cores in an evening, complete with cut out for the> strut. Fiberglassing them to the strut is not that much harder. I'll be> sure and give a full report, including pics, when I'm done.> > Ken> > On Wed, 12 May 1999 steve(at)byu.edu wrote:> > > I assume that whom ever has used foam that you have used fiberglass on the> > foam before applying fabric. Surely the foam would not stand the fabric> > cements or the heat. Seems like wood would be easier. Am I missing> > something?> >> > Steve E> > Provo UT.> >> > PS. Yesterday was so nice I had to extend my lunch for an hour. Honest I> > was back to work on time, just 1000' too high...> >> > SE> >> > > -----Original Message-----> > > Behalf Of oil> > > can> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 9:38 PM> > > To: Pietenpol Discussion> > > Subject: Re: Adjustable lift strut attachments> > >> > >> > > I was thinking about how to streamline round tube with foam,> > > and decided> > > that I would glue some sandpaper around a piece of round> > > tubing, then file> > > the grouve in the foam with the sandpaper covered tube. then> > > once the foam> > > is sanded out, and fitted and glued to the tube, I would sand> > > the foam to> > > the streamline shape on the outside, and cover with fabric.> > >> > > ocb> > >> > >> > >> > > >From: Ken Beanlands > > > >Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion > > > >To: Pietenpol Discussion > > > >Subject: Re: Adjustable lift strut attachments> > > >Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 08:54:26 -0600 (MDT)> > > >> > > >I finally got in the replacement barrel ends for my struts> > > and replaced> > > >the old ones. You may recall that I had tapped what I though> > > were poor> > > >quality threads in the barrels before I installed the> > > original set only to> > > >find out that this tight thread is done on purpose . It> > > accomadates the> > > >expansion that occurs due to welding. I welded them in on> > > the weekend and> > > >ran the tap down last night. Before I welded them in, there> > > was no way to> > > >install the fork ends. After I finished, ine was still very tight and> > > >needed the tap. The second had, indeed, expanded to the> > > point where the> > > >rod end would fit with just a little persuasion. I didn't> > > persuade it too> > > >much and instead ran the tap down to clean up the thread. It was an> > > >expensive lesson as the barrels cost about $50 each, but I feel a lot> > > >better about them now. I also bought 2 new, rolled thread,> > > magna-fluxed> > > >rod ends at about $50 each as well.> > > >> > > >Fortunately, I was able to afford the new parts because I substituted> > > >round tube struts in place of streamlined stock. Now, I just have to> > > >figure out how to streamline them without breaking the bank> > > or getting too> > > >heavy. My current plan is to hot wire some foam blocks to form the> > > >fairing. I can then attach them to the strut and cover with> > > fiberglass.> > > >BTW, aircraft lock wire works great for hot wire cutting. It> > > has enough> > > >resistance to get some good heat going.> > > >> > > >Ken> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________