Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: Michael Perez
After the recent comments about the antiquated nature of Matronics, I'm notsure if it can handle this post.Chris Tracy (www.westcoastpiet.com) sent me this group of photos and avideo. Chris' brother flies a Pitts and lives near our own Scott Liefield.Admittedly, Scott's Piet is not your average Piet, and Scott is not youraverage Piet pilot. http://youtu.be/nhBNG3mH-yM Gary BootheNX308MB________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 06:39:53 -0800

Original Posted By: Michael Perez

Original Posted By: "AircamperN11MS"
Good grief! I did not know I was building another aerobatic plane, one was enough!Thanks, great pics and video.Ray KrauseWaiex N51YX, building Sky ScoutSent from my iPad> On Jan 22, 2015, at 6:15 AM, Gary Boothe wrote:> > After the recent comments about the antiquated nature of Matronics, I=99m not sure if it can handle this post> > Chris Tracy (www.westcoastpiet.com) sent me this group of photos and a video. Chris=99 brother flies a Pitts and lives near our own Scott Liefield. Admittedly, Scott=99s Piet is not your average Piet, and Scott is not your average Piet pilot.> http://youtu.be/nhBNG3mH-yM> > Gary Boothe> NX308MB> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics

Original Posted By: "Pocono John"
Hi guys,I'll try and answer all the questions when I get some time. Please ask them. Ihave nothing to hide and the plane is certified for aerobatics. I only ask you all to not try this in other Piets. I would not do it my self.More later, Cheers,--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: MIG or TIG?

Original Posted By: "Jeff Boatright"
Larry M wrote:> I'd like to learn to weld. My best idea to date is to attend an EAA seminarand start making scrap metal.> > Other ideas?> TIG or gas?> > ThanksI took the EAA seminar. For me, it seemed more as an introduction to welding. WhenI got home, I still wanted to find a school that taught it or someone to coachme. No luck.In the end, I gave up and will pay a welder to do it for me. Here are some answersI received at the Hatz forum on the subject:Good luck!1 - "I use gas because I'm the type who can't rub my head and pat my belly at thesame time. Pushing a gas pedal, guiding a flame front and dabbing a weldingrod all at the same time reminds me of flying a helicopter. And, you can't letgo of anything to scratch your nose. Gas is easier for me, probably becauseI've had very little tig instruction. I'm not in a hurry, which is an advantageof tig. And when gas welding, the issue of stress relieving is easily addressedduring the welding process since the HAZ is not so concentrated in a smallarea. And the set up for gas welding is not nearly as expensive as a tig setup.There's pros and cons...just some of my thoughts"2 - "I chose gas because it was cheaper to get set up with and more forgiving fora new guy. Now that I've used it I would probably move to TIG next time. However,if you are going to use TIG for your first welding experience, make sureyou can achieve very good fits when cutting your tubing... especially on theclusters. As others have said, TIG has a much smaller HAZ which means you havea smaller area affected buy the heat, but this also means that you have to havea tight fit with your tubing within the HAZ. If you feel that you can cut/grindyour tubing joints such that you can get a nice tight fit, then go aheadwith TIG. You might want to experiment first."3 - "Here is how it was explained to me by an old-timer.1) Using a TIG requires much closer tolerances when cutting and fitting tubes.2) the TIG weld is likely more attractive in the end.3) The TIG creates heat very close to the weld and therefore sets up major stressesnear the cluster. because of this, the whole cluster, when done, needs tobe heated and normalized with one (maybe two) OA torches. So even if you havea TIG, you're going to need OA anyway.4) OA fill bigger gaps easier. Construction is likely to go ahead much more quickly.With these in mind, carry on and make up your own mind. But do not forget to normalizethe clusters after they're finish welded."--------JohnRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics

Original Posted By: Michael Perez
Hi Scott,What was changed from plans to allow for your plane to be "certified aerobatic"(I put in quotes because I don't know what I'm talking about using that phrase).That is, what was determined to be the weak points in the original Pietenpoldesign, how was that determined, and what were the solutions?Thanks,JeffRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 08:11:44 -0800

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I noticed a couple things just looking at the plane. Also some aerobatics ifdone properly. The plane don't even know it's doing them. Done wrong and youare done doing aerobatics forever.JerrySky Classic-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
That's what I was thinking, Jerry. A barrel roll, like the one done on thevideo, if done correctly pulls just slightly over one G all the way around.Bob Hoover used to do one while pouring a cup of coffee on the instrumentpanel. What the extra strength is needed for is the occasional "Oops".I think I'll hold off from doing any in my Pietenpol.Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Jack
I don't think it's specified, merely that the plane has been flight tested to performthe maneuvers specified. This is individual to that aircraft.Of course if it fails that test... I assume you don't have a plane to certify!Seems to basically allow you to endanger yourself only while you vet your planefor what ever you want, then can perform those maneuvers like a certified aircraftwith the additional restrictions of any other experimental.Looks like an aileron roll, and the airplane has much larger than normal piet ailerons.I got a ride in a cub years and years ago. We did a loop which amazed me to noend. The instructor then told me it wouldn't even do a barrel roll, which, beingthe benign maneuver it is, didn't make sense, especially if it would do aloop. He told me not to trust him, try for myself. Try as I might, no luck,would just fall out midway. He demonstrated, same thing. These were the daysI was teaching people to fly aerobatics, wasn't like I didn't know anythingabout a barrel roll. It was clear in my attempts though, despite my "credentials" I clearly was notqualified to do any of this in a light civil. If not for the instructors intervention,I'd have oversped and then overstressed that puppy in a huge way onthe recovery. This is pretty varsity stuff, as benign as some of it may seem.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Aerobatics

Original Posted By: "Boatright, Jeffrey"
Didn't notice a parachute...Sent from my iPadJack Textor> On Jan 22, 2015, at 8:15 AM, "Gary Boothe" wrote:> > After the recent comments about the antiquated nature of Matronics, I=99m not sure if it can handle this post> > Chris Tracy (www.westcoastpiet.com) sent me this group of photos and a video. Chris=99 brother flies a Pitts and lives near our own Scott Liefield. Admittedly, Scott=99s Piet is not your average Piet, and Scott is not your average Piet pilot.> http://youtu.be/nhBNG3mH-yM> > Gary Boothe> NX308MB> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "JERRY"
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Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
One thing that caught my eye right away was the longer ailerons. JerrySky Classic-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By:> owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Whoa see them now, and yes he is sitting high in the saddle.Sent from my iPadJack Textor> On Jan 22, 2015, at 12:29 PM, "JERRY" wrote:> > > One thing that caught my eye right away was the longer ailerons. > > Jerry> Sky Classic> > -----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: "AircamperN11MS"
Hello Fellow Pieters,Well Like I said, I have nothing to hide except the fear that you guys may wantto ban me from the Piet list now. Where do I start? How about the use ofthe word Certified? I used the term very loosely when I made my last entry.I should better explain. "Aerobatics" are authorized on my "Operating Limitations"for "one" person only. It is on the limitations the way it is becauseit was done in 1972. Today it is done through a logbook entry. The test pilottoday just states that certain maneuvers have been demonstrated and are safeto perform. Back in 1972 the maneuvers had to be performed in view of the FAAperson who issued the "Operating Limitations". Mine were so demonstrated. Loops,Rolls, Stalls, Spins, Hammerheads etc. All positive G's. The question about the parachute. I can legally fly and do aerobatics without achute if I am by myself. If I had a passenger, both persons would need to weara chute. Now we all know that there simply is not any room in a Piet for achute. This is true with my plane too, so yes I do the aerobatics without one.I quit doing loops about 15 years ago because the pull up in the beginningof the loop induced a fare amount of G's to get the plane over the top of theloop. So now if I want the feeling of the loop I just do a split S. I can dothat and keep the plane under 2-G's safely. Why load the plane up if I don'tneed to? Yes the barrel only puts a little more than 1-G on the plane. Okay, so now on to the air-frame differences. I admit that it looks like a Pietbut under the fabric, it is not. I have a steel tube fuselage. It is not thefuse on the Pietenpol drawings. The dimensions are the same as the Piet butthe structure is not. I have a lot more tubing in mine. I also have steeltail feathers. The wing is also different hence the bigger ailerons. The wingswere actually built to the "REED" Clipped wing drawings for the J-3 cub. Theseare the wings that allow the guys to do acro in the cubs. So the wing isa proven acro wing. I only have a 27 foot wing span, this make the aileronslook huge. This is only a brief description of the big differences and it will only causemore questions, but that is okay with me. Like you guys, I like talking aboutmy plane. So I'm sure some of you are wondering what the G limitations are on my plane? Back in the mid 1970's an engineer from General Dynamics did the calculationsfor us. His name was Bud Evans. His name may be familiar to so of you old timers.He is the guy that designed the Volksplane one and two. He was very wellqualified to do the math. Anyway to the point. the documents I have from himsay the plane is good for 4.2 G's. He even told us where it would fail ifit did. Yes I do need be nice and handle the plane gently. The good part isthat the plane is so draggy that it doesn't pick up much speed during the descentsmaking it easy to not overload the thing. Attached is a naked pic of the fuse. Please feel free to ask more questions. I would like you all to understand thatI am very much in support of the Piet and the community. I don't pretend thatmine is a Piet, it very much looks like one from 100 feet. It is supposedto. Piets are cool. I just happen to have one of the most different snowflakesfrom the rest.Cheers all, More later,--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/piet ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics

Original Posted By: "Jeff Boatright"
Oh, one fun fact. Many different pilots have done acro in my plane back in the70's. Dad used to let just about anyone fly it. One of our friends only weighed about 135 lbs. He did 10 consecutive loops withoutloosing altitude in my plane. A feat that will never be done again, or eventried as long as I am in charge. Happy landings,--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics

Original Posted By: "tools"
This is all very cool stuff! (to me, anyway).Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics

Original Posted By: Marcus Zechini
Scott L, not so much reason to be jealous about today... It was fifty degrees whenmy son asked if I wanted to go flying. It's fifty degrees I says! He staredat me like a dog watching a tv.But then methinks, our plane is two minutes away. It's dead calm and great vis.My son wants to spend some time with me, what am I thinking? Heck ya I wannago flying!We're still not comfortable landing here with pax, so he dropped me off at a friendshouse, I came home and grabbed a camera. Awful dark for film, but managedto get his second landing, he beat me home. It takes a dozen landings or so,but at some point, landing uphill really isn't all that different.http://youtu.be/MF1TkalZzr4Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 18:53:56 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics

Original Posted By: goffelectric(at)comcast.net

Original Posted By: "AircamperN11MS"
John,I am sure the people who wrote those comments are nice guys, but they are alsofull of crap. Airplane building is a serious subject, and people who spread oldwives tales and BS are an impediment to learning, progress and safety. We wouldbe better off if people like that resisted offering bogus advice, but sincethis will never happen, I implore builder who's goal is to learn build and flyto stop taking advice from people who spread myths..If you drive a car with a manual transmission, you use both hands and both feetfor different operations, so the comment about using a tig pedal is ignorant.You also need to use both feet to fly a Piet or a Hatz, so that guy shouldn'tbe building either..If you look at the top photo here : http://flycorvair.net/2014/01/21/risk-m ... ence-page/ you will see a picture of Robert Bean, my personal mentor is welding, finest welder I ever met, Worked for the USAF and Johnson Controls at the cape. Finest human being I will likely ever meet in aviation. Killed in a weather related Glassair III crash. I would gladly shave 10 years off my life to add another week to his. Of all the friends I have lost in accidents, loosing Bob is the only one I have not learned to cope with..Bob Bean of closing gaps with a tig welder, when people said the myth you haveto have close fits : "If an grown man can step across it without a running start,I can weld it shut".I have been tig welding for 20 years, and gas welding for 15 before that. I canclose any gap with a tig welder easier than I can with a gas welder, period.With tig you can much more effectively throttle the heat, and not melt the edgeaway. When trying to do this with gas, amateurs are always pulling the torchaway, and exposing the red hot metal to ambient air, allowing it to oxidize andmurdering its potential strength. With tig the post fly keeps the weld bathedeven if the weld stops..The comments on heat affected zone are BS also, as well as the comments about needingto normalize tig welds. All of this has been disproven with extensive industrytesting. Real welders working on aerobatic planes use specific rod andtechniques that need no heat treatment. Go to the SPA panther website and lookthat they have made about 30 very complex aerobatic fuselages this year. Theirprimary to welders are Vern (from my last post) and Travis. Dan Weseman isa very good welder himself, and he extensively researched the finest details ofthe welds for his design. It is all done with Lincoln 225's with micro startER-60 rod and no post weld heating..The very concept of gas welding being 'forgiving' is a joke. I have seen more screwedup gas welds on homebuilts than tig. I have heard every stupid commentlike "These welds are like a gorilla, ugly but strong." If it looks poor, it is,period. Gas welding is the subject I taught at Riddle. The A&P students in1992-95 were required to spend 120 hours in the lab with a torch in their hand.They got pretty good, but the average age was 20, the eyesight was good, andthe concentration was good. The problem with gas welding today is the same astailwheels, the lack of good first hand instruction available. The EAA workshopswere taught by Earl Luce, who is good, but 3 days isn't anything but an introduction..A Positive Idea: Go to Oshkosh, and politely spend several days with instructorsthere, they are very good. My Booth is 616 every year, and for the last 18 yearsI have given Corvair forums right next to the welders. I park in lot W rightbehind them. Every day on the way out I spend a bit of time with the Lincolnstaff. First class people there to share a skill. Yet 50% of the people inthe 100 seats are stupidly and rudely staring at their smart phones while theseguys teach. Lincoln provides an excellent base group of literature in a convenientred bag....at the end of the demonstration, the people who yammered ontheir smart phones often wander off like distracted cows leaving the bag whereever it fell off their laps, to wander off and shove a brat into their faces.The instructors are to nice to say much, but if anyone shows up who genuinelywants to LEARN, they will bend over backwards to help that guy. Suggestion: justshow up and learn, and don't repeat old wives tails about required close fits,just learn.-ww.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics

Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Funny MarcusWorth mentioning, the 4.2 G limit is at gross weight, 1175 lbs. I typically weigh950 lbs when I goof off. Extra safety factor there.--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics

Original Posted By: "Gary Boothe"
Wow, Scott!You say that you typically weigh 950 pounds, and you can still get into a Pietenpol.Amazing. imagine how the plane would perform if you were of average weight.:)BCRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I told you that Scott's not your normal Piet pilot...Gary BootheNX308MB-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
That's so true Gary! He is a darn nice guy and someone who will offer aride to any builder/flyer/prospective builder/interested party. You shouldall come the West Coast Pietenpol Fly-in and meet him and see his plane.ChrisSacramento, CAWestcoastPiet.com-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By:> owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I agree with Chris! Come to the West Coast Pietenpol Fly In this June. Meetfabulous Pietenpol personalities such as Scott Liefeld, Chris Tracy, Gary Boothand many more! Frazier Lake Airpark 1C9 June 6-7 2015. Mike Groah414MVSent from my iPad> On Jan 22, 2015, at 7:21 PM, "CatDesigns" wrote:> > > That's so true Gary! He is a darn nice guy and someone who will offer a> ride to any builder/flyer/prospective builder/interested party. You should> all come the West Coast Pietenpol Fly-in and meet him and see his plane.> > > Chris> Sacramento, CA> WestcoastPiet.com> > > > > -----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Jack
Builders,We are now in the last 24 hours to sign up for Corvair College #32 with local hostsKevin and Shelley in Texas. The link is on Shelley's original post above..You do not need an engine, nor a manual, or even a project in your shop to attend. Every college has a number of people who are on a recon run, to get a look at it for themselves. If you would like to see a 7 minute film made about the Colleges by the EAA staff, look at this http://flycorvair.net/2014/11/06/new-ea ... l-2013/.If you are new to homebuilding and have yet to find the practical support from fellow builders that everyone needs to make progress on their project, consider heading to the college, many builders on this list will tell you that they found their home in homebuilding with Corvair builders because of the ethic of the movement where the successful builders return to the colleges to directly assist the next wave of builders. If you want to make 2015 your year in aviation CC#32 is a great place to start. You can look at this link to last years Texas college and see many Piet builders making progress http://flycorvair.net/2014/03/13/corvai ... exas/Today is the last day to put yourself in this years photo.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics

Original Posted By: "AircamperN11MS"
Jon, I say you should use whatever N-number you like best and I think it would be agreat tribute to your Dad if you end up chosing your Dad'syear of birth but for a little background, this video by former Pietenpol newslettereditor Grant MacLaren gives a little background on howall this got started. The Ace Job single-seater was Bernard's first monoplaneand he and Don Finke flew this (a lot) in 1928. You're correcton the two-seat design that first flew in 1929 with the Ford engine. Mike C.Ohiohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2Ch9QhwyBY (4:18 long) I just did a quick N-number search and N1927JJ is available. http://www.landings.com/evird.acgi$pass ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics