Original Posted By: Jack
Hmmm... I never noticed that before. The Flying and Glider plans actually dosay to use 28ga aluminum on the leading edge of the wing. I have no idea how anyone manages to actually build an airplane using only theplans in the Flying and Glider reprints. Those drawings are so small.Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rudder Post
Pietenpol-List: Rudder Post
Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder Post
Original Posted By: Tony Crawford
Hi Piet friends,I'm redoing my rudder post as per Jack Phillips. As I looked at my existing post it's not fabricated per the Flying and Glider Manual. My existing one is done with 1" at the top and bottom tabs. I can't find a matching layout in my plans. Can anyone point me to a layout?Thanks!JackSent from my iPadJack Textor________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:01:57 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder Post
Hi Piet friends,I'm redoing my rudder post as per Jack Phillips. As I looked at my existing post it's not fabricated per the Flying and Glider Manual. My existing one is done with 1" at the top and bottom tabs. I can't find a matching layout in my plans. Can anyone point me to a layout?Thanks!JackSent from my iPadJack Textor________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:01:57 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder Post
Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder Post
Original Posted By: Tony Crawford
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder Post
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder Post
Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder Post
Original Posted By: Tony Crawford
Tony here is what I found on drawing 4. I'm more perplexed because my existing post is 5 1/2" between the floor bolts. Not sure where I came up with that years ago...JackSent from my iPadJack Textor________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:46:04 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder Post
Tony here is what I found on drawing 4. I'm more perplexed because my existing post is 5 1/2" between the floor bolts. Not sure where I came up with that years ago...JackSent from my iPadJack Textor________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:46:04 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder Post
Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder Post
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Bill; yet another drawback of aluminum for leading edges is that when you bumpthe hangar door or anything else with it, you have a dent. You can sometimespop them back out if you can get to the backside to push them out, but they arenever smooth again. I've seen a case were a builder wanted to go the ultra-cheaproute and used the dead-soft aluminum that you buy in a roll at the hardwarestore and can cut with scissors. That stuff is absolutely unforgiving whenit comes to dents.You can use good aircraft sheet aluminum and it's more resistant to dents, butit needs to be a bit heavier and stiffer and that makes it more difficult to formand install the leading edges.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder Post
Bill; yet another drawback of aluminum for leading edges is that when you bumpthe hangar door or anything else with it, you have a dent. You can sometimespop them back out if you can get to the backside to push them out, but they arenever smooth again. I've seen a case were a builder wanted to go the ultra-cheaproute and used the dead-soft aluminum that you buy in a roll at the hardwarestore and can cut with scissors. That stuff is absolutely unforgiving whenit comes to dents.You can use good aircraft sheet aluminum and it's more resistant to dents, butit needs to be a bit heavier and stiffer and that makes it more difficult to formand install the leading edges.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder Post
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder Post
Original Posted By: Jack
Those are tough questions, Jack. :)I wouldn't be too worried about the tabs being 1" instead of 1 1/4". Since the1934 plans don't even provide a dimension, most builders probably just eyeballit - which probably is what you did. It looks like about an inch, relativelyspeaking. Funny how both the FGM plans and the 1934 plans both provide incompleteinformation for this component - but they are incomplete in different ways.Not sure why your mounting bolts are spaced at 5 1/2" instead of 6 1/2". One possiblescenario is that you may have done the calculations, laid out the part,cut it, drilled it, and bent it, and when you were finished, in order to maintainthe required height, that's just the way it worked. If you were to openup the bends to maintain 6 1/2", the height would probably be too short. And,since you most likely already have the floor drilled, there's no point in tryingto change it now.Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder Post
Those are tough questions, Jack. :)I wouldn't be too worried about the tabs being 1" instead of 1 1/4". Since the1934 plans don't even provide a dimension, most builders probably just eyeballit - which probably is what you did. It looks like about an inch, relativelyspeaking. Funny how both the FGM plans and the 1934 plans both provide incompleteinformation for this component - but they are incomplete in different ways.Not sure why your mounting bolts are spaced at 5 1/2" instead of 6 1/2". One possiblescenario is that you may have done the calculations, laid out the part,cut it, drilled it, and bent it, and when you were finished, in order to maintainthe required height, that's just the way it worked. If you were to openup the bends to maintain 6 1/2", the height would probably be too short. And,since you most likely already have the floor drilled, there's no point in tryingto change it now.Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder Post
Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder Post
Original Posted By: "namrednos"
Bill you nailed it! Fabricated another yesterday and naturally it's not quiteright! Will get it right eventually!Sent from my iPadJack Textor> On Nov 11, 2015, at 8:39 PM, "Bill Church" wrote:> > > Those are tough questions, Jack.
> > I wouldn't be too worried about the tabs being 1" instead of 1 1/4". Since the1934 plans don't even provide a dimension, most builders probably just eyeballit - which probably is what you did. It looks like about an inch, relativelyspeaking. Funny how both the FGM plans and the 1934 plans both provide incompleteinformation for this component - but they are incomplete in differentways.> Not sure why your mounting bolts are spaced at 5 1/2" instead of 6 1/2". Onepossible scenario is that you may have done the calculations, laid out the part,cut it, drilled it, and bent it, and when you were finished, in order to maintainthe required height, that's just the way it worked. If you were to openup the bends to maintain 6 1/2", the height would probably be too short. And,since you most likely already have the floor drilled, there's no point intrying to change it now.> > Bill C.> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 227#449227> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder Post
Bill you nailed it! Fabricated another yesterday and naturally it's not quiteright! Will get it right eventually!Sent from my iPadJack Textor> On Nov 11, 2015, at 8:39 PM, "Bill Church" wrote:> > > Those are tough questions, Jack.
> > I wouldn't be too worried about the tabs being 1" instead of 1 1/4". Since the1934 plans don't even provide a dimension, most builders probably just eyeballit - which probably is what you did. It looks like about an inch, relativelyspeaking. Funny how both the FGM plans and the 1934 plans both provide incompleteinformation for this component - but they are incomplete in differentways.> Not sure why your mounting bolts are spaced at 5 1/2" instead of 6 1/2". Onepossible scenario is that you may have done the calculations, laid out the part,cut it, drilled it, and bent it, and when you were finished, in order to maintainthe required height, that's just the way it worked. If you were to openup the bends to maintain 6 1/2", the height would probably be too short. And,since you most likely already have the floor drilled, there's no point intrying to change it now.> > Bill C.> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 227#449227> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder PostOriginal Posted By: Matt Dralle
Tonyp51, the drawing is not on the plans because it is from the 1932-33 FlyingManual, Page 27. The plans are not the same as the magazine but they are close.If you look to the left at the control stick, you can see the aileron cablescome off at the same place as the elevator cables, not from a horn like the plans.ScottRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:00:45 -0800
Tonyp51, the drawing is not on the plans because it is from the 1932-33 FlyingManual, Page 27. The plans are not the same as the magazine but they are close.If you look to the left at the control stick, you can see the aileron cablescome off at the same place as the elevator cables, not from a horn like the plans.ScottRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:00:45 -0800
Pietenpol-List: Make Sure You're Listed! List of Contributors Published
Original Posted By: Donald Koehnlein
Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder Post
Original Posted By: "oldbird"
For everyone:Ben brings up a good point. Pietenpols have been a favorite of the wood shop for2 reasons. The first is simplicity. Plywood gussets and wood sticks are aboutas simple as you can get. The second is familiarity. Between us, we'vebuilt at least 6 fuselages, several sets of tail feathers and dozens of ribs.That doesn't mean we wouldn't like to do something different. I believe Flybabiesand Volksplanes have similar construction. KR-2's might be a stretch butwith enough advance prep work, we could certainly contribute a lot of man-hoursand expertise. The Fisher line might also be worthwhile considering.For Tony:We'll give you a tentative maybe on the horizontal stab and elevators. Keep intouch.Dave AldrichRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder Post
For everyone:Ben brings up a good point. Pietenpols have been a favorite of the wood shop for2 reasons. The first is simplicity. Plywood gussets and wood sticks are aboutas simple as you can get. The second is familiarity. Between us, we'vebuilt at least 6 fuselages, several sets of tail feathers and dozens of ribs.That doesn't mean we wouldn't like to do something different. I believe Flybabiesand Volksplanes have similar construction. KR-2's might be a stretch butwith enough advance prep work, we could certainly contribute a lot of man-hoursand expertise. The Fisher line might also be worthwhile considering.For Tony:We'll give you a tentative maybe on the horizontal stab and elevators. Keep intouch.Dave AldrichRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder Post
Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder Post
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Hi I realized one of the drawings specify "braze" and the other nothing for the rudderbar pivot bolt. None says "weld". Braze and weld are not the same. To myknowledge, AN bolts are made of some alloy steel. Most likely containing chromiumand heat treated. Usually they harden when heated red hot and left to cool.This causes a boundary of different crystal structures at and beside the weldedarea. This is a danger area in starting a crack.This brings up a question to my mind: What type of bolts did Mr. Pietenpol use?Were AN hardware available as early as 1920s, in Minnesota? This will also helpmy decision about the bolts I am going to use in my Piet. My guess: Mr. Pietenpolused normal grade 8 bolts.Regards and happy landings.SemihRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder Post
Hi I realized one of the drawings specify "braze" and the other nothing for the rudderbar pivot bolt. None says "weld". Braze and weld are not the same. To myknowledge, AN bolts are made of some alloy steel. Most likely containing chromiumand heat treated. Usually they harden when heated red hot and left to cool.This causes a boundary of different crystal structures at and beside the weldedarea. This is a danger area in starting a crack.This brings up a question to my mind: What type of bolts did Mr. Pietenpol use?Were AN hardware available as early as 1920s, in Minnesota? This will also helpmy decision about the bolts I am going to use in my Piet. My guess: Mr. Pietenpolused normal grade 8 bolts.Regards and happy landings.SemihRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder Post
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder Post
Original Posted By: Scott Knowlton
In the plans, the only reference to any fastener specification that I could findwas on the drawing sheet for the split landing gear. In the materials list,the bolts are listed as "nickel steel." So, it might be safe to assume thatthis would be the type of fasteners used throughout the aircraft, when it wasdesigned. Nickel Steel is an alloy steel, with nickel being added to the steel for addedstrength, ductility and corrosion resistance. However, finding fasteners madeof Nickel Steel in today's world is a challenge. Perhaps they were readilyavailable in the 1930s.Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder Post
In the plans, the only reference to any fastener specification that I could findwas on the drawing sheet for the split landing gear. In the materials list,the bolts are listed as "nickel steel." So, it might be safe to assume thatthis would be the type of fasteners used throughout the aircraft, when it wasdesigned. Nickel Steel is an alloy steel, with nickel being added to the steel for addedstrength, ductility and corrosion resistance. However, finding fasteners madeof Nickel Steel in today's world is a challenge. Perhaps they were readilyavailable in the 1930s.Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder Post
Original Posted By: Matt Dralle
And probably cost less than a nickel! Sent from my iPhone> On Nov 19, 2015, at 9:22 AM, Bill Church wrote:> > > In the plans, the only reference to any fastener specification that I could findwas on the drawing sheet for the split landing gear. In the materials list,the bolts are listed as "nickel steel." So, it might be safe to assume thatthis would be the type of fasteners used throughout the aircraft, when it wasdesigned. > Nickel Steel is an alloy steel, with nickel being added to the steel for addedstrength, ductility and corrosion resistance. However, finding fasteners madeof Nickel Steel in today's world is a challenge. Perhaps they were readilyavailable in the 1930s.> > Bill C.> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 744#449744> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 09:13:52 -0800
And probably cost less than a nickel! Sent from my iPhone> On Nov 19, 2015, at 9:22 AM, Bill Church wrote:> > > In the plans, the only reference to any fastener specification that I could findwas on the drawing sheet for the split landing gear. In the materials list,the bolts are listed as "nickel steel." So, it might be safe to assume thatthis would be the type of fasteners used throughout the aircraft, when it wasdesigned. > Nickel Steel is an alloy steel, with nickel being added to the steel for addedstrength, ductility and corrosion resistance. However, finding fasteners madeof Nickel Steel in today's world is a challenge. Perhaps they were readilyavailable in the 1930s.> > Bill C.> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 744#449744> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 09:13:52 -0800
Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder Post
Original Posted By: "at7000ft"
Hi Tony Looks like we will be able to do your horizontal stab and elevators (or flippers)this year. The only fly in the ointment is that Skip is not driving back upthrough Atlanta and can't deliver it. If you know anybody who could pick themup or if anybody on this list is going back trough Atlanta and could deliver,that would be great. More to follow...For the rest of you, we are going to do something incredibly heretical at Sun NFun -- work on a KR-2. I know, enclosed cockpit, side by side, low wing, fast,yada, yada. Quelle horreur. But here's the deal. A gentleman inherited aKR-2 project from a person who had the audacity to pass away before he finished.He is donating the project to us to work on and then pass it on to anotherdeserving party. We haven't seen the project and have no details as to whatstage it is and what quality work has been done but we'll find out soon enough,hopefully.DaveRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder Post
Hi Tony Looks like we will be able to do your horizontal stab and elevators (or flippers)this year. The only fly in the ointment is that Skip is not driving back upthrough Atlanta and can't deliver it. If you know anybody who could pick themup or if anybody on this list is going back trough Atlanta and could deliver,that would be great. More to follow...For the rest of you, we are going to do something incredibly heretical at Sun NFun -- work on a KR-2. I know, enclosed cockpit, side by side, low wing, fast,yada, yada. Quelle horreur. But here's the deal. A gentleman inherited aKR-2 project from a person who had the audacity to pass away before he finished.He is donating the project to us to work on and then pass it on to anotherdeserving party. We haven't seen the project and have no details as to whatstage it is and what quality work has been done but we'll find out soon enough,hopefully.DaveRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rudder Post
Original Posted By: "Jack Textor"
oldbird wrote:> Hi > > I realized one of the drawings specify "braze" and the other nothing for therudder bar pivot bolt. None says "weld". Braze and weld are not the same. To myknowledge, AN bolts are made of some alloy steel. Most likely containing chromiumand heat treated. Usually they harden when heated red hot and left to cool.This causes a boundary of different crystal structures at and beside the weldedarea. This is a danger area in starting a crack.> > This brings up a question to my mind: What type of bolts did Mr. Pietenpol use?Were AN hardware available as early as 1920s, in Minnesota? This will alsohelp my decision about the bolts I am going to use in my Piet. My guess: Mr. Pietenpolused normal grade 8 bolts.> > Regards and happy landings.> > SemihSemihYou will feel much better when flying your Piet knowing you used AN hardware throughout-- except for that rudder bar pivot bolt. I tig welded mine and havehad no problems through 75 hrs of flying and heavy rudder use. The cadmium ona hot AN bolt is not something you want to inhale. Used a grade 8 for that one.Rick H--------Rick HollandNX6819ZRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
oldbird wrote:> Hi > > I realized one of the drawings specify "braze" and the other nothing for therudder bar pivot bolt. None says "weld". Braze and weld are not the same. To myknowledge, AN bolts are made of some alloy steel. Most likely containing chromiumand heat treated. Usually they harden when heated red hot and left to cool.This causes a boundary of different crystal structures at and beside the weldedarea. This is a danger area in starting a crack.> > This brings up a question to my mind: What type of bolts did Mr. Pietenpol use?Were AN hardware available as early as 1920s, in Minnesota? This will alsohelp my decision about the bolts I am going to use in my Piet. My guess: Mr. Pietenpolused normal grade 8 bolts.> > Regards and happy landings.> > SemihSemihYou will feel much better when flying your Piet knowing you used AN hardware throughout-- except for that rudder bar pivot bolt. I tig welded mine and havehad no problems through 75 hrs of flying and heavy rudder use. The cadmium ona hot AN bolt is not something you want to inhale. Used a grade 8 for that one.Rick H--------Rick HollandNX6819ZRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Rigging Rudder
Original Posted By: "Andre B. Charvet"
Piet friends, for those that have rigged their rudder I have a couple ofquestions. This one may be hard to detail but how tight do you tension thecables? Also I've seen turnbuckles on the rudder end and others in thecockpit aft the rudder bar. What's the preferred method?Thanks Jack TextorWest Des Moines, IA515-490-5177________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 12:01:33 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rigging Rudder
Piet friends, for those that have rigged their rudder I have a couple ofquestions. This one may be hard to detail but how tight do you tension thecables? Also I've seen turnbuckles on the rudder end and others in thecockpit aft the rudder bar. What's the preferred method?Thanks Jack TextorWest Des Moines, IA515-490-5177________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 12:01:33 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rigging Rudder
Pietenpol-List: Re: Rigging Rudder
Original Posted By: Matt Dralle
Jack,I have rudder peddles in mine. I will let someone with a rudder bar answer yourtension question.If you are able to put you turn buckles in the front it will help to keep the tailheavy tendicies in check. It is just a very small detail but worth it in theend.--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 09:38:24 -0800
Jack,I have rudder peddles in mine. I will let someone with a rudder bar answer yourtension question.If you are able to put you turn buckles in the front it will help to keep the tailheavy tendicies in check. It is just a very small detail but worth it in theend.--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 09:38:24 -0800