Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: "Lostman"
Hi all,It's been quite a while since I have managed to do anything on the Piet project. Hopefully I can get a bit done this time round. I'm making a start on the elevators and will see what happens from there.The fin/rudder and a full set of ribs were made earlier and have been waiting for me to get on with it again...step by step!CheersMark StanleyJapan________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rebuilding plus questions about elevator cable tension

Original Posted By: Matt Dralle
Hello all, First post here on Matronics. This summer I acquired a once beautiful Pietenpolwith some neat history. Sadly it was involved in some sore of accident but noreal story behind it. I was basically a basket case of parts with a good setof wings and a fuselage that needed some wood repair. Luckily after a very thoroughinventory and a lot of time looking over things I found I have an extremelywell built aircraft. It also seems it won an award at Oshkosk in 1999 afterattending Brodhead. I'll try to work on posting up a rebuild thread later. However right now I have one very elusive question. How tight should the riggingbe on the elevator control cables? I've searched all through the site and allover the internet and haven't found anything. After hooking up all cables tocheck over everything I found that the stick is VERY heavy. I loosened up thecables some but then I seem to have enough slack that it worries me. Howeverthe stick pressure is much better than before. Anyone have any suggestions forme on this one?I've attached a picture of what the plane looked like back in 1999. It will bevery similar once rebuilt. Thanks for any suggestions. Kenneth--------I'm an airplane addict. I own a Teenie Two, remnants of an Avid, a KR2, hang gliderand paraglider as well as my 1997 Pietenpol Air Camper. As a CFII/MEI I lovesharing the gift of flight with just about anyone that will fly with me.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/old_ ... ______Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 07:58:27 -0800

Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Greetings, 'Lostman'-You've got an interesting airplane there. Checking the FAA registry on Six-Three-Niner-Eight,it does not list the engine type, but the photo looks like it'sa Subaru. No sign of a radiator though... just all those ventilation louverson the aft side of the cowling. Whatcha got-?About the elevator cable tension. If your Piet has the stock control cable geometry(cables pass under the pilot's seat to the walking beam behind the seat,then individual cables aft to each elevator), the cable tension will never bethe same in both up and down cables and there will always be slack in the cablesat some point in the travel. If you try to take out all the slack, your controlswill bind and the stick will be very stiff in fore-and-aft motion.There are a couple of things you can look at. First thing is, how are the cablesrouted under the rear seat? Plans call for cable guide holes to be bored throughthe seat support, but that's pretty crude and most builders either putsmall pulleys there or else they provide nylon fairleads for the cables to passthrough. Not essential, but helpful. Next thing is, the elevators ('flippers')themselves want to sag when the airplane is parked without the engine running,and just lifting them without any air moving over them can make the sticka bit heavy when you haul it back on the ground. That force lightens up assoon as there is propwash or forward motion through the air.Elevator cable tension: block up the elevators so they're in trail with the horizontalstabilizer and wiggle the wires. They should not be twangy at all, butthey also shouldn't have much slack with the elevator in that position. Atrest with the flippers down, the top cables on a stock Air Camper will be rubbingthe leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer, so not much slack in thosecables. Most builders add some sort of rub strips on the leading edges of theHS where the top cable runs over it (mine has pinked leather patches glued on;the leather was cut from a shoe that I found on the side of the road!) Thelower cables will have noticeable slack in them in that condition.Are you in Utah, or is that the former owner? The FAA registry lists it as beingin Utah, and the reason I ask is because there are Piet builders in just aboutevery state of the union and you might be near enough to one to have themdrop by your shop and take a look at the cable tension. One standout Piet personin Utah is Steve Eldredge, who is in the SLC area. Steve's green Air Camperis the one you see by the Piet listing when you go to the Matronics site.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power, 72x36 Culver propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rebuilding plus questions about elevator cable tension

Original Posted By: "Lostman"
Aha. A little searching of the archives found that your airplane was Duane Woolsey's,and it is Subaru powered. A snip:> I have posted a few words here on the EA-81 in my air camper. I biult my > reduction drive from plans I purchased from RFI publishing. I am usinga > single electronic ignition (crane cams XR-700) two 36MM carbs mounted ona > simple 90 degree manifold madw up from 1 3/4 inch tubing and 1/4 inch plate. > I am very pleased with this combination. It started first pull and hasrun > for 114 hours without a single stutter. I did spend a little time getting > the jetting right but once it was dialed in it realy runs good and givesme > great performance. The airplane will be at Broadhead this summer so ifany > of you are interested drop by and get a ride or just take a look. > > Duane Woolsey NX6398--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power, 72x36 Culver propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rebuilding plus questions about elevator cable tension

Original Posted By: "Lostman"
taildrags wrote:> Greetings, 'Lostman'-> > You've got an interesting airplane there. Checking the FAA registry on Six-Three-Niner-Eight,it does not list the engine type, but the photo looks like it'sa Subaru. No sign of a radiator though... just all those ventilation louverson the aft side of the cowling. Whatcha got-?> > About the elevator cable tension. If your Piet has the stock control cable geometry(cables pass under the pilot's seat to the walking beam behind the seat,then individual cables aft to each elevator), the cable tension will neverbe the same in both up and down cables and there will always be slack in the cablesat some point in the travel. If you try to take out all the slack, yourcontrols will bind and the stick will be very stiff in fore-and-aft motion.> > There are a couple of things you can look at. First thing is, how are the cablesrouted under the rear seat? Plans call for cable guide holes to be boredthrough the seat support, but that's pretty crude and most builders either putsmall pulleys there or else they provide nylon fairleads for the cables to passthrough. Not essential, but helpful. Next thing is, the elevators ('flippers')themselves want to sag when the airplane is parked without the engine running,and just lifting them without any air moving over them can make the sticka bit heavy when you haul it back on the ground. That force lightens up assoon as there is propwash or forward motion through the air.> > Elevator cable tension: block up the elevators so they're in trail with the horizontalstabilizer and wiggle the wires. They should not be twangy at all,but they also shouldn't have much slack with the elevator in that position. Atrest with the flippers down, the top cables on a stock Air Camper will be rubbingthe leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer, so not much slack in thosecables. Most builders add some sort of rub strips on the leading edges of theHS where the top cable runs over it (mine has pinked leather patches gluedon; the leather was cut from a shoe that I found on the side of the road!) Thelower cables will have noticeable slack in them in that condition.> > Are you in Utah, or is that the former owner? The FAA registry lists it as beingin Utah, and the reason I ask is because there are Piet builders in justabout every state of the union and you might be near enough to one to have themdrop by your shop and take a look at the cable tension. One standout Piet personin Utah is Steve Eldredge, who is in the SLC area. Steve's green Air Camperis the one you see by the Piet listing when you go to the Matronics site.I guess I should have included what I know about the plane. You mention Steve Eldredge,he actually flew to Oshkosh with this plane in formation. He is friendswith Duane Woolsey who built the plane. I have been in contact with Duane aswell, very nice gentleman. The plane is in Utah, that's where I purchased it. It seems Duane sold it to aman in Indiana who sold it back to a man in Utah. He is the one that had the accidentin it, although there was never any report filed so not much to go onthere. He sold it again to a younger man that only had it for one month beforeI purchased it from him. I at least know the full history of the plane as faras owners go, but no logsbooks at all. They were lost somewhere along the way.I suspect the gentleman that had the accident in it kept them. Seems he neverthrows anything away and can't find anything else that goes with the plane.I've met and talked with him as well. Sadly I live in New Jersey now so I don'thave a lot of time to work on the plane unless I'm back out in Utah visitingand working on it. I realize that due to the geometry the cable tension basically has to be set tonot be too slack yet not too tight. As well as allowing it to move as it shouldwithout too much stick force. When I rigged it back up the elevators wouldactually hang up due to the amount of pressure the cables were holding in thestick. After a little playing with them I set them about as how you describe.I figure that's about where they needed to be but wanted to get others opinionon them that have actually flown the plane. Part of the issue with the tensionmay be because I didn't like how the cables were routed. You can visibly seethey were routed in such a way that they were chaffing fairly heavily on a woodbrace. I moved them to another location where I feel they wouldn't have thatissue as much. Plus they are not routed through a nylon tubing that will eliminatedamage to the wood. Yes, the plane has an EA-81 Subaru engine. Duane placarded it at 100 HP, althoughI'm not sure it really has that much since he told me he didn't do anythingto the engine other than intake, carbs, redrive and exhaust. In other words,no internal changes were made. I've dealt with Subaru engines for a long timeand know this model should really only have about 80 HP stock and with dual carbsand open exhaust maybe produce 90 HP if the prop will allow it to get to it'speak torque RPM. He said it came from a car that only had around 35,000 milesso it's relatively just broken in. These are hardy engines for sure! I'veflown behind a few of them and they are very smooth with a belt redrive takingall prop harmonics out of the equation. Thanks for the information, just what I was looking for!--------I own a Teenie Two, remnants of an Avid, a KR2, hang glider and paraglider as wellas my 1997 Pietenpol Air Camper. I'm also scratch building a Sonerai IIL.As a CFII/MEI I love sharing the gift of flight with just about anyone that willfly with me.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_ ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rebuilding plus questions about elevator cable tension

Original Posted By: Chris Tracy
Here's another picture showing the status of the project I picked up. As you cantell it's a ways from flying condition. In fact it was basically a basket casethat I believe to have most parts to put it back together.There was some wood damage but nothing that I'd consider to be substantial or thatwill keep me from being able to fix it properly and get it flying again...eventually.It was missing the entire vertical stabilizer although I have no idea where itwent or why it's missing. I built a new one since I do have plans. Luckily thatis one of the few pieces of paper I have and only due to the fact that the lastowner purchased a new set for this specific purpose.--------I own a Teenie Two, remnants of an Avid, a KR2, hang glider and paraglider as wellas my 1997 Pietenpol Air Camper. I'm also scratch building a Sonerai IIL.As a CFII/MEI I love sharing the gift of flight with just about anyone that willfly with me.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_ ... ______Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 03:04:04 +0000 (UTC)

Original Posted By: "Lostman"
"Lost man",The paint scheme on your Piet is stolen from mine, although I'm just in the process of finishing mine! It's amazing how people can steal things like that! Anyway, nice to have a twin Piet around.Ray KrauseSent from my iPad> On Nov 26, 2016, at 9:51 AM, taildrags wrote:> > > Greetings, 'Lostman'-> > You've got an interesting airplane there. Checking the FAA registry on Six-Three-Niner-Eight, it does not list the engine type, but the photo looks like it's a Subaru. No sign of a radiator though... just all those ventilation louvers on the aft side of the cowling. Whatcha got-?> > About the elevator cable tension. If your Piet has the stock control cable geometry (cables pass under the pilot's seat to the walking beam behind the seat, then individual cables aft to each elevator), the cable tension will never be the same in both up and down cables and there will always be slack in the cables at some point in the travel. If you try to take out all the slack, your controls will bind and the stick will be very stiff in fore-and-aft motion.> > There are a couple of things you can look at. First thing is, how are the cables routed under the rear seat? Plans call for cable guide holes to be bored through the seat support, but that's pretty crude and most builders either put small pulleys there or else they provide nylon fairleads for the cables to pass through. Not essential, but helpful. Next thing is, the elevators ('flippers') themselves want to sag when the airplane is parked without the engine running, and just lifting them without any air moving over them can make the stick a bit heavy when you haul it back on the ground. That force lightens up as soon as there is propwash or forward motion through the air.> > Elevator cable tension: block up the elevators so they're in trail with the horizontal stabilizer and wiggle the wires. They should not be twangy at all, but they also shouldn't have much slack with the elevator in that position. At rest with the flippers down, the top cables on a stock Air Camper will be rubbing the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer, so not much slack in those cables. Most builders add some sort of rub strips on the leading edges of the HS where the top cable runs over it (mine has pinked leather patches glued on; the leather was cut from a shoe that I found on the side of the road!) The lower cables will have noticeable slack in them in that condition.> > Are you in Utah, or is that the former owner? The FAA registry lists it as being in Utah, and the reason I ask is because there are Piet builders in just about every state of the union and you might be near enough to one to have them drop by your shop and take a look at the cable tension. One standout Piet person in Utah is Steve Eldredge, who is in the SLC area. Steve's green Air Camper is the one you see by the Piet listing when you go to the Matronics site.> > --------> Oscar Zuniga> Medford, OR> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"> A75 power, 72x36 Culver prop> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 183#463183> > > > > > ==================================================================================================================================================================================================================> > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rebuilding plus questions about elevator cable tension

Original Posted By: "Lostman"
douwe(at)douwestudios.com wrote:> Id say match the tension on your other Piet. If its been flying, cant go wrongthere.> > Other than that, its pretty much a feeling thing. you dont want them any tighterthan necessary to eliminate any possibility of the elevator moving independentlyof the stick. Were talking about from the rocking beam back to the actualelevator. Youll find its actually fairly loose. Prop the elevator up whenadjusting or the weight of the elevator will fool you and create more tensionon the upper cable> > DouweI kind of figured that's what I needed to do. I do appreciate the confirmationthough. That's pretty much where I have the tension set now. Not sure what you mean by matching it on my "other" Piet since this is my onlyone. Maybe this post isn't in response to my question though. Either way, thanks.Kenneth--------I own a Teenie Two, remnants of an Avid, a KR2, hang glider and paraglider as wellas my 1997 Pietenpol Air Camper. I'm also scratch building a Sonerai IIL.As a CFII/MEI I love sharing the gift of flight with just about anyone that willfly with me.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rebuilding plus questions about elevator cable tension

Original Posted By: "(null) raykrause"
Yes this one was built by Duane Woosley. I've talked to and met with him aboutthis aircraft as well. Nice gentleman and fine builder.--------I own a Teenie Two, remnants of an Avid, a KR2, hang glider and paraglider as wellas my 1997 Pietenpol Air Camper. I'm also scratch building a Sonerai IIL.As a CFII/MEI I love sharing the gift of flight with just about anyone that willfly with me.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Kenneth,Sorry the picture was upside down, I'm not sure how that works? It was right whenI sent it and right when I received it, must be the Ghosts of Christmas!Yes, it is a SkyScout with a new rebuilt A-65. Its about ready to go, just needto do some paperwork, get the numbers on her and get the final inspection. Allthe controls are working nicely, engines runs great, just minor things likesafety wire for the turnbuckles, cotter pins in castle nuts, etc. and it willfly this Spring, if not before. I will have to do some taxi tests and bone upon wheel landings in the Aeronca! Too bad you are not in CA.Thanks,Ray KrauseSent from my iPad> On Nov 26, 2016, at 2:37 PM, Lostman wrote:> > > [quote="Ray Krause"]"Lost man",> > The paint scheme on your Piet is stolen from mine, although I'm just in the processof finishing mine! It's amazing how people can steal things like that!Anyway, nice to have a twin Piet around.> > Ray Krause> > That paint scheme is very close to what mine had on it. In fact I will be goingall red on the turtle deck when it's finished as well. Wish the picture wasupside down but it appears to be a nice Scout. > > How far along are you now? Is it flying?> > Kenneth> > --------> I own a Teenie Two, remnants of an Avid, a KR2, hang glider and paraglider aswell as my 1997 Pietenpol Air Camper. I'm also scratch building a Sonerai IIL.As a CFII/MEI I love sharing the gift of flight with just about anyone thatwill fly with me.> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 193#463193> > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rebuilding plus questions about elevator cable tension

Original Posted By: Matt Dralle
Kenneth;If you'll notice the tail surfaces of Ray's Scout (picture it rightside up), noticethat the flippers hang down when the airplane is parked, and that the topelevator cables contact the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer. Similarly,notice that there is slack (a slight belly) in the lower cables. This ispretty much what things should look like back there.By the way, in case you weren't already aware of this resource, there is an absolute gold mine of Piet pictures and information on Chris Tracy's website, http://www.westcoastpiet.com . You can spend hours looking at pictures of every aspect of an Air Camper from first cutting of wood to Oshkosh trophy, and everything in between. Might save you some time when you are wondering how other builders have done something that you're thinking about. If you want to start with one of the best, go to Pictures, then Mike Cuy's pictures, then just go through them one by one and learn as you admire.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power, 72x36 Culver propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 10:10:16 -0800

Original Posted By: "(null) raykrause"
Ray, how far back from vertical are the cabanes on your Sky Scout to get withina 15" -20" CG with the A-65 you are using?Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rebuilding plus questions about elevator cabletension

Original Posted By: "Speedbrake"
A question for the water cooled pietenpolers out there. Is there an off the shelfradiator that works . Maybe a small tractor such as the 8N , or a smallcar radiator ? I know that we are limited as to the size and I hate to havethe expense one custom built.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rebuilding plus questions about elevator cable tension

Original Posted By: "Speedbrake"
Thank you Glen. I am married and my wife is ok with me building. I need to makea commitment to getting started and finishing it. I do have a set of plans forthe Scout and the Air Camper. Thanks for your suggestions I will ck out theWest Coast Piet web site.Mike TownsleyWalford Iowaglen wrote:> Hello Mike> Search west coast Pietenpol. Enormous amount of info there. If you want to lookat plans, flying and glider manual reprints are available through EAA website> Construction pretty straightforward but this is an airplane you are building.It's a long-term project but very satisfying. If you are married get the wifeon board or it won't happen if you're not married consider marrying the projectbecause that's what kind of devotion it takes. > Although they have been built in the space equivalent to a single car garageyou really need more space shop organization is critical although you don'treally need that many tools> You really can learn a lot more on the West Coast Piet site and the archivesof this site than any one person can tell you. Anyway welcome to the neighborhood> > > On Nov 28, 2016, at 7:26 AM, iowaboy wrote:> > > > > > > > I am considering building a Sky Scout. I have some questions.> > > > I am 5 foot 9 in tall and weigh 220 lbs. will I fit in one and the CG beok?> > > > Who else on the list is building or flying one?> > > > What is the hardest part about building one?> > Thanks> > Mike Townsley> > miket(at)southslope.net> > > > --------> > Serve the Lord with gladness,> > Mike> > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here:> > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 305#463305> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------Serve the Lord with gladness,MikeRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rebuilding plus questions about elevator cable tension

Original Posted By: Matt Dralle
Copy. I am curious to hear how the muff does both on the ground and in the air.--------Mike PerezRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 09:51:00 -0800

Original Posted By: "Lostman"
Do you plan to follow the same process for the wing spars? How about scarfing in pieces so that each laminate of fir isn't full length? Ipersonally don't see an issue with this as long as the joints are staggered andscarfed 1:12 ratio like they should be. Great work, it give me an idea for my upcoming build as well.--------I own a Teenie Two, remnants of an Avid, a KR2, hang glider and paraglider as wellas my 1997 Pietenpol Air Camper. I'm also scratch building a Sonerai IIL.As a CFII/MEI I love sharing the gift of flight with just about anyone that willfly with me.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rebuilding plus questions about elevator cable tension

Original Posted By: "Lostman"
Oscar, TerryThank you very much for all the information and Terry for the pictures it helpsme a bunch especially since I haven't actually laid eyes on any of this otherthan pictures.Oscar, beautiful job by the Engineering Dept. I actually grasped a lot of that.I'm just an old mechanic, but I have furthered the career of many an Engineerin my day so I kind of speak their lingo.The project I'm looking at trying to pick up has standard spruce spars, 612 Riblettribs completed and the center section with the fuel tank completed, so Iwould probably just move forward with that design and build spacers to put betweenthe top of the spar and the rib cap similar to yours Terry.Again thank you guys for all of your input.BrentRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rebuilding plus questions about elevator cable tension