Original Posted By: Owen Davies
PI>I don't know a whole lot about the Ford A engine, but It seems that IPI>remember somewhere about a fellow who put his radiator at the chinPI>location. ( at the bottom next to the fire wall.If you look in the 1932 Flying and Glider Manual there are pictures ofone or two oldpiets that had radiators mounted under the engine, and I seem toremember that Iread somewhere that Bernard Pietenpol did it on one of the models hebuilt. I'm sureit can be made to work. I would recommend to anyone who is thinking ofan automotiveengine setup that you subscribe to Contact! magazine put together byMick Myal. Ithas a great deal of excellent material. In particular, for radiatorplacement andconsiderations that lead to good cooling, there is an article in theJuly-August, 1998issue ( #45 ) by Hans Mayer that will really help you.His address: Contact!email address: contact1(at)flash.netnew website: www.NonProfitNet.com/CONTACT/The website also contains a list of all the back issues and theircontents. When I wasat Oshkosh two years ago I subscribed ( $20 a year ) and paid somethinglike $75 forall of the back issues. Now that is a lot of money to me, and Iagonized a long timebefore I decided to do it. I have not been disappointed one bit.By the way, Mickhimself is working on a plane (I don't recall what type) in which he isinstalling aGeo/Suzuki 1.3 L. 4-cyl. That is one of the engines I am mostseriously consideringfor my Piet, and he is going to have some articles about it soon.John F. in Peoria________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ford radiator placement
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ford radiator placement
Original Posted By: Richard DeCosta
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ford radiator placement>Install the radiator where Bernie did, and you will be a HAPPY CAMPER !!>________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ford radiator placement>Install the radiator where Bernie did, and you will be a HAPPY CAMPER !!>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ford radiator placement
Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
On pages 18 & 19 of the 1933 Flying Manual is an excellent description,including drawings, of the Gere Sport Biplane's use of a wing mounted headertank and a cowling mounted radiator, using a Ford or Chevy engine. Seemed towork well and be popular.Warren________________________________________________________________________________
On pages 18 & 19 of the 1933 Flying Manual is an excellent description,including drawings, of the Gere Sport Biplane's use of a wing mounted headertank and a cowling mounted radiator, using a Ford or Chevy engine. Seemed towork well and be popular.Warren________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ford radiator placement
Original Posted By: Michael Conkling
Install the radiator where Bernie did, and you will be a HAPPY CAMPER !!________________________________________________________________________________
Install the radiator where Bernie did, and you will be a HAPPY CAMPER !!________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ford radiator placement
Original Posted By: Warren Shoun
Over the years, I've had discussions with Vi Kapler & others at Brodhedabout this, 'cause it's what I wanted to do. Considerations are:1. Moving radiator, coolant & plumbing radically changes c.g., so plan forit:2. Extra drag associated with ducting & cowling - you have to do someengineering to balance airflow requirements vs. parasite drag - maybe O.K.with more modern liquid cooled engines, but with an 'A' or 'B' you're prettyclose to the power-edge already.3. Loss of thermosyphon effect ie: coolant will not circulate in "heatrises" fashion if your water pump takes a powder, so landing decisions aretime-compressed.Seems like Bernie had it right all along. I'd STILL like to explore aradiator relocation, but I'd like to see data & info on a thru-the-prop, alla Jenny approach.Low & Slow,Lee in MIAron(at)hrn.bradley.edu wrote:> PI>I don't know a whole lot about the Ford A engine, but It seems that I> PI>remember somewhere about a fellow who put his radiator at the chin> PI>location. ( at the bottom next to the fire wall.>> If you look in the 1932 Flying and Glider Manual there are pictures of> one or two old> piets that had radiators mounted under the engine, and I seem to> remember that I> read somewhere that Bernard Pietenpol did it on one of the models he> built. I'm sure> it can be made to work. I would recommend to anyone who is thinking of> an automotive> engine setup that you subscribe to Contact! magazine put together by> Mick Myal. It> has a great deal of excellent material. In particular, for radiator> placement and> considerations that lead to good cooling, there is an article in the> July-August, 1998> issue ( #45 ) by Hans Mayer that will really help you.>> His address: Contact!>> email address: contact1(at)flash.net>> new website: www.NonProfitNet.com/CONTACT/>> The website also contains a list of all the back issues and their> contents. When I was> at Oshkosh two years ago I subscribed ( $20 a year ) and paid something> like $75 for> all of the back issues. Now that is a lot of money to me, and I> agonized a long time> before I decided to do it. I have not been disappointed one bit.> By the way, Mick> himself is working on a plane (I don't recall what type) in which he is> installing a> Geo/Suzuki 1.3 L. 4-cyl. That is one of the engines I am most> seriously considering> for my Piet, and he is going to have some articles about it soon.>> John F. in Peoria________________________________________________________________________________
Over the years, I've had discussions with Vi Kapler & others at Brodhedabout this, 'cause it's what I wanted to do. Considerations are:1. Moving radiator, coolant & plumbing radically changes c.g., so plan forit:2. Extra drag associated with ducting & cowling - you have to do someengineering to balance airflow requirements vs. parasite drag - maybe O.K.with more modern liquid cooled engines, but with an 'A' or 'B' you're prettyclose to the power-edge already.3. Loss of thermosyphon effect ie: coolant will not circulate in "heatrises" fashion if your water pump takes a powder, so landing decisions aretime-compressed.Seems like Bernie had it right all along. I'd STILL like to explore aradiator relocation, but I'd like to see data & info on a thru-the-prop, alla Jenny approach.Low & Slow,Lee in MIAron(at)hrn.bradley.edu wrote:> PI>I don't know a whole lot about the Ford A engine, but It seems that I> PI>remember somewhere about a fellow who put his radiator at the chin> PI>location. ( at the bottom next to the fire wall.>> If you look in the 1932 Flying and Glider Manual there are pictures of> one or two old> piets that had radiators mounted under the engine, and I seem to> remember that I> read somewhere that Bernard Pietenpol did it on one of the models he> built. I'm sure> it can be made to work. I would recommend to anyone who is thinking of> an automotive> engine setup that you subscribe to Contact! magazine put together by> Mick Myal. It> has a great deal of excellent material. In particular, for radiator> placement and> considerations that lead to good cooling, there is an article in the> July-August, 1998> issue ( #45 ) by Hans Mayer that will really help you.>> His address: Contact!>> email address: contact1(at)flash.net>> new website: www.NonProfitNet.com/CONTACT/>> The website also contains a list of all the back issues and their> contents. When I was> at Oshkosh two years ago I subscribed ( $20 a year ) and paid something> like $75 for> all of the back issues. Now that is a lot of money to me, and I> agonized a long time> before I decided to do it. I have not been disappointed one bit.> By the way, Mick> himself is working on a plane (I don't recall what type) in which he is> installing a> Geo/Suzuki 1.3 L. 4-cyl. That is one of the engines I am most> seriously considering> for my Piet, and he is going to have some articles about it soon.>> John F. in Peoria________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ford radiator placement
Original Posted By: jmcnarry(at)techplus.com (John McNarry)
I can't find my reference at the moment, but I remember that Mr. Pietenpoldid indeed mount a radiator at the chin location, but only once since hefound that the reduced air flow through the radiator caused coolingproblems. I would also think there would be a problem handling the extrahose on the head to take care of the steam pocket. I am finding that thebest advice is to follow the plans! There was no mention of the chinlocation in the Pietenpol Manual which is published by Don Pietenpol.However, it did say that planes built by Mr. Pietenpol after 1937 had theradiator mounted on the cabanes rather than on a mount on the fuselage, withthe to pf the radiator inset into the leading edge ofthe wing. This madefor a wider but shallower radiator, resulting in less frontal drag (insetinto the wing), with more visibility between the bottom of the radiator andthe top of the engine. Incidentally, I found this manual, which is availablethrough the Pietenpol family web site to be a very valuable book. It goesinto great detail on construction, and modification of the Model A.Al SwansonFuselage done, ribs done, working on the metal fittings.>PI>I don't know a whole lot about the Ford A engine, but It seems that I>PI>remember somewhere about a fellow who put his radiator at the chin>PI>location. ( at the bottom next to the fire wall.>>>If you look in the 1932 Flying and Glider Manual there are pictures of>one or two old>piets that had radiators mounted under the engine, and I seem to>remember that I>read somewhere that Bernard Pietenpol did it on one of the models he>built. I'm sure>it can be made to work. I would recommend to anyone who is thinking of>an automotive>engine setup that you subscribe to Contact! magazine put together by>Mick Myal. It>has a great deal of excellent material. In particular, for radiator>placement and>considerations that lead to good cooling, there is an article in the>July-August, 1998>issue ( #45 ) by Hans Mayer that will really help you.>>His address: Contact!>>email address: contact1(at)flash.net>>new website: www.NonProfitNet.com/CONTACT/>>The website also contains a list of all the back issues and their>contents. When I was>at Oshkosh two years ago I subscribed ( $20 a year ) and paid something>like $75 for>all of the back issues. Now that is a lot of money to me, and I>agonized a long time>before I decided to do it. I have not been disappointed one bit.>By the way, Mick>himself is working on a plane (I don't recall what type) in which he is>installing a>Geo/Suzuki 1.3 L. 4-cyl. That is one of the engines I am most>seriously considering>for my Piet, and he is going to have some articles about it soon.>>John F. in Peoria>>________________________________________________________________________________
I can't find my reference at the moment, but I remember that Mr. Pietenpoldid indeed mount a radiator at the chin location, but only once since hefound that the reduced air flow through the radiator caused coolingproblems. I would also think there would be a problem handling the extrahose on the head to take care of the steam pocket. I am finding that thebest advice is to follow the plans! There was no mention of the chinlocation in the Pietenpol Manual which is published by Don Pietenpol.However, it did say that planes built by Mr. Pietenpol after 1937 had theradiator mounted on the cabanes rather than on a mount on the fuselage, withthe to pf the radiator inset into the leading edge ofthe wing. This madefor a wider but shallower radiator, resulting in less frontal drag (insetinto the wing), with more visibility between the bottom of the radiator andthe top of the engine. Incidentally, I found this manual, which is availablethrough the Pietenpol family web site to be a very valuable book. It goesinto great detail on construction, and modification of the Model A.Al SwansonFuselage done, ribs done, working on the metal fittings.>PI>I don't know a whole lot about the Ford A engine, but It seems that I>PI>remember somewhere about a fellow who put his radiator at the chin>PI>location. ( at the bottom next to the fire wall.>>>If you look in the 1932 Flying and Glider Manual there are pictures of>one or two old>piets that had radiators mounted under the engine, and I seem to>remember that I>read somewhere that Bernard Pietenpol did it on one of the models he>built. I'm sure>it can be made to work. I would recommend to anyone who is thinking of>an automotive>engine setup that you subscribe to Contact! magazine put together by>Mick Myal. It>has a great deal of excellent material. In particular, for radiator>placement and>considerations that lead to good cooling, there is an article in the>July-August, 1998>issue ( #45 ) by Hans Mayer that will really help you.>>His address: Contact!>>email address: contact1(at)flash.net>>new website: www.NonProfitNet.com/CONTACT/>>The website also contains a list of all the back issues and their>contents. When I was>at Oshkosh two years ago I subscribed ( $20 a year ) and paid something>like $75 for>all of the back issues. Now that is a lot of money to me, and I>agonized a long time>before I decided to do it. I have not been disappointed one bit.>By the way, Mick>himself is working on a plane (I don't recall what type) in which he is>installing a>Geo/Suzuki 1.3 L. 4-cyl. That is one of the engines I am most>seriously considering>for my Piet, and he is going to have some articles about it soon.>>John F. in Peoria>>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ford radiator placement
Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
I have thought about making a top tank the same shape as the wing leadingedge and moving it back that few inches so that it blends in. Early plansstated that the rad could be cut in half and the halves stacked so as todouble the thickness. I would also suggest that anyone contemplating using aFord engine relocate the waterpump to feed into the lower water jacketinlet. Model As and Bs have the pump locatedat the head outlet. The pump inits stock location, if working well, causes a low pressure area in the head.This lowers the vapour pressure and makes these engines more prone toboiling than if the pump is located lower and pressurizes the block. I haveseen several with this conversion and the owners felt it was a greatimprovement. Piet .54 in Richards image file is a picture of a Piet with alow mounted rad built in the early thirties.The comment to check out Contact is a good one. With careful planning I'msure that a rad can be enclosed inside the cowl and still work efficiently.The Funk brothers successfully did it with the model B.J Mc-----Original Message-----
I have thought about making a top tank the same shape as the wing leadingedge and moving it back that few inches so that it blends in. Early plansstated that the rad could be cut in half and the halves stacked so as todouble the thickness. I would also suggest that anyone contemplating using aFord engine relocate the waterpump to feed into the lower water jacketinlet. Model As and Bs have the pump locatedat the head outlet. The pump inits stock location, if working well, causes a low pressure area in the head.This lowers the vapour pressure and makes these engines more prone toboiling than if the pump is located lower and pressurizes the block. I haveseen several with this conversion and the owners felt it was a greatimprovement. Piet .54 in Richards image file is a picture of a Piet with alow mounted rad built in the early thirties.The comment to check out Contact is a good one. With careful planning I'msure that a rad can be enclosed inside the cowl and still work efficiently.The Funk brothers successfully did it with the model B.J Mc-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ford radiator placement
Original Posted By: RGASKIN
>Install the radiator where Bernie did, and you will be a HAPPY CAMPER !!>The plans do not show how and where Bernie installed the radiator. Are theresome detail plans that we have missed?Thanks, Glenn in VA________________________________________________________________________________
>Install the radiator where Bernie did, and you will be a HAPPY CAMPER !!>The plans do not show how and where Bernie installed the radiator. Are theresome detail plans that we have missed?Thanks, Glenn in VA________________________________________________________________________________