Original Posted By: mboynton(at)excite.com
To all:Just a little information to pass along.I've been considering using Titebond II adhesive instead of a two-part epoxy(considerations of ease of use and cost). I spoke with a technical rep.from Franklin, the manufacturer. I told him I would be making gusseted buttjoints with douglas fir and asked if Franklin had done any tests toestablish the useful life of the glue joint. He stated that they haven'tconducted specific tests to answer that question but that Titebond has beenin use for over forty-five years with no reported failures. I asked abouttemperature extremes (I live in the Phoenix area) and he stated that atabove 150 degrees F., bond strength drops by fifty percent - down to 18,000psi. He also stated that there is no difference in strength betweenTitebond and Titebond two - just that Titebond II is water resistant andTitebond is not. Just FYI.Mark BoyntonPhoenix, AZ ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Titebond adhesives
Pietenpol-List: Re: Titebond adhesives
Original Posted By: mboynton(at)excite.com
If you are planning on using an adhesive that looses 50% of it's strength at 150deg. F, I wouldn't want to fly your airplane! The inside of my wings will reachclose to 300 deg. F in the summer sun. Granted they are painted dark green andabsorb a lot of heat energy. It's amazing how much heat will build up inside thestructure when the sun is on it.mboynton(at)excite.com wrote:> To all:>> Just a little information to pass along.>> I've been considering using Titebond II adhesive instead of a two-part epoxy> (considerations of ease of use and cost). I spoke with a technical rep.> from Franklin, the manufacturer. I told him I would be making gusseted butt> joints with douglas fir and asked if Franklin had done any tests to> establish the useful life of the glue joint. He stated that they haven't> conducted specific tests to answer that question but that Titebond has been> in use for over forty-five years with no reported failures. I asked about> temperature extremes (I live in the Phoenix area) and he stated that at> above 150 degrees F., bond strength drops by fifty percent - down to 18,000> psi. He also stated that there is no difference in strength between> Titebond and Titebond two - just that Titebond II is water resistant and> Titebond is not. Just FYI.>> Mark Boynton> Phoenix, AZ>> _______________________________________________________--David B.Schober, CPEInstructor, Aviation MaintenanceFairmont State CollegeNational Aerospace Education CenterRt. 3 Box 13Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503(304) 842-8300________________________________________________________________________________
If you are planning on using an adhesive that looses 50% of it's strength at 150deg. F, I wouldn't want to fly your airplane! The inside of my wings will reachclose to 300 deg. F in the summer sun. Granted they are painted dark green andabsorb a lot of heat energy. It's amazing how much heat will build up inside thestructure when the sun is on it.mboynton(at)excite.com wrote:> To all:>> Just a little information to pass along.>> I've been considering using Titebond II adhesive instead of a two-part epoxy> (considerations of ease of use and cost). I spoke with a technical rep.> from Franklin, the manufacturer. I told him I would be making gusseted butt> joints with douglas fir and asked if Franklin had done any tests to> establish the useful life of the glue joint. He stated that they haven't> conducted specific tests to answer that question but that Titebond has been> in use for over forty-five years with no reported failures. I asked about> temperature extremes (I live in the Phoenix area) and he stated that at> above 150 degrees F., bond strength drops by fifty percent - down to 18,000> psi. He also stated that there is no difference in strength between> Titebond and Titebond two - just that Titebond II is water resistant and> Titebond is not. Just FYI.>> Mark Boynton> Phoenix, AZ>> _______________________________________________________--David B.Schober, CPEInstructor, Aviation MaintenanceFairmont State CollegeNational Aerospace Education CenterRt. 3 Box 13Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503(304) 842-8300________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Titebond adhesives
Original Posted By: Gary Gower
300 degrees!!?? May as well bake cookies!Steve E. (white wings)-----Original Message-----David B. SchoberSent: Monday, February 22, 1999 3:47 PMSubject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Titebond adhesivesIf you are planning on using an adhesive that looses 50% of it's strength at150deg. F, I wouldn't want to fly your airplane! The inside of my wings willreachclose to 300 deg. F in the summer sun. Granted they are painted dark greenandabsorb a lot of heat energy. It's amazing how much heat will build up insidethestructure when the sun is on it.mboynton(at)excite.com wrote:> To all:>> Just a little information to pass along.>> I've been considering using Titebond II adhesive instead of a two-partepoxy> (considerations of ease of use and cost). I spoke with a technical rep.> from Franklin, the manufacturer. I told him I would be making gussetedbutt> joints with douglas fir and asked if Franklin had done any tests to> establish the useful life of the glue joint. He stated that they haven't> conducted specific tests to answer that question but that Titebond hasbeen> in use for over forty-five years with no reported failures. I asked about> temperature extremes (I live in the Phoenix area) and he stated that at> above 150 degrees F., bond strength drops by fifty percent - down to18,000> psi. He also stated that there is no difference in strength between> Titebond and Titebond two - just that Titebond II is water resistant and> Titebond is not. Just FYI.>> Mark Boynton> Phoenix, AZ>> _______________________________________________________--*David B.Schober, CPEInstructor, Aviation MaintenanceFairmont State CollegeNational Aerospace Education CenterRt. 3 Box 13Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503(304) 842-8300________________________________________________________________________________
300 degrees!!?? May as well bake cookies!Steve E. (white wings)-----Original Message-----David B. SchoberSent: Monday, February 22, 1999 3:47 PMSubject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Titebond adhesivesIf you are planning on using an adhesive that looses 50% of it's strength at150deg. F, I wouldn't want to fly your airplane! The inside of my wings willreachclose to 300 deg. F in the summer sun. Granted they are painted dark greenandabsorb a lot of heat energy. It's amazing how much heat will build up insidethestructure when the sun is on it.mboynton(at)excite.com wrote:> To all:>> Just a little information to pass along.>> I've been considering using Titebond II adhesive instead of a two-partepoxy> (considerations of ease of use and cost). I spoke with a technical rep.> from Franklin, the manufacturer. I told him I would be making gussetedbutt> joints with douglas fir and asked if Franklin had done any tests to> establish the useful life of the glue joint. He stated that they haven't> conducted specific tests to answer that question but that Titebond hasbeen> in use for over forty-five years with no reported failures. I asked about> temperature extremes (I live in the Phoenix area) and he stated that at> above 150 degrees F., bond strength drops by fifty percent - down to18,000> psi. He also stated that there is no difference in strength between> Titebond and Titebond two - just that Titebond II is water resistant and> Titebond is not. Just FYI.>> Mark Boynton> Phoenix, AZ>> _______________________________________________________--*David B.Schober, CPEInstructor, Aviation MaintenanceFairmont State CollegeNational Aerospace Education CenterRt. 3 Box 13Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503(304) 842-8300________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Titebond adhesives
Original Posted By: Dean Dayton
Does the adhesive will "recover" his strength, once the air of take off,cools the wings down? At 8,000 ft ASL will be as hard as "Cromoly" wings
Now serious: I glue my props I carve for personal use, with Titebond II (4years in perfect shape with Titebond [no Titebond II available here at thattime]) never "melt" in summer... could not notice any diference, rememberone thing the adhesives used in Mr Pietenpol's era, {some of them are stillflying to date}. "I think" (personal idea) those adhesives (casein glue, etc.) were maybe 50%the strenght of what the Titebond, or any modern good glue, gets in summertoday... Just a thought, Go figure.... SaludosGary Gower>If you are planning on using an adhesive that looses 50% of it's strengthat 150>deg. F, I wouldn't want to fly your airplane! The inside of my wings will reach>close to 300 deg. F in the summer sun. Granted they are painted dark green and>absorb a lot of heat energy. It's amazing how much heat will build upinside the>structure when the sun is on it.>>mboynton(at)excite.com wrote:>>> To all:>>>> Just a little information to pass along.>>>> I've been considering using Titebond II adhesive instead of a two-part epoxy>> (considerations of ease of use and cost). I spoke with a technical rep.>> from Franklin, the manufacturer. I told him I would be making gusseted butt>> joints with douglas fir and asked if Franklin had done any tests to>> establish the useful life of the glue joint. He stated that they haven't>> conducted specific tests to answer that question but that Titebond has been>> in use for over forty-five years with no reported failures. I asked about>> temperature extremes (I live in the Phoenix area) and he stated that at>> above 150 degrees F., bond strength drops by fifty percent - down to 18,000>> psi. He also stated that there is no difference in strength between>> Titebond and Titebond two - just that Titebond II is water resistant and>> Titebond is not. Just FYI.>>>> Mark Boynton>> Phoenix, AZ>>>> _______________________________________________________>>>-->>David B.Schober, CPE>Instructor, Aviation Maintenance>Fairmont State College>National Aerospace Education Center>Rt. 3 Box 13>Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503>(304) 842-8300>>________________________________________________________________________________
Does the adhesive will "recover" his strength, once the air of take off,cools the wings down? At 8,000 ft ASL will be as hard as "Cromoly" wings
Now serious: I glue my props I carve for personal use, with Titebond II (4years in perfect shape with Titebond [no Titebond II available here at thattime]) never "melt" in summer... could not notice any diference, rememberone thing the adhesives used in Mr Pietenpol's era, {some of them are stillflying to date}. "I think" (personal idea) those adhesives (casein glue, etc.) were maybe 50%the strenght of what the Titebond, or any modern good glue, gets in summertoday... Just a thought, Go figure.... SaludosGary Gower>If you are planning on using an adhesive that looses 50% of it's strengthat 150>deg. F, I wouldn't want to fly your airplane! The inside of my wings will reach>close to 300 deg. F in the summer sun. Granted they are painted dark green and>absorb a lot of heat energy. It's amazing how much heat will build upinside the>structure when the sun is on it.>>mboynton(at)excite.com wrote:>>> To all:>>>> Just a little information to pass along.>>>> I've been considering using Titebond II adhesive instead of a two-part epoxy>> (considerations of ease of use and cost). I spoke with a technical rep.>> from Franklin, the manufacturer. I told him I would be making gusseted butt>> joints with douglas fir and asked if Franklin had done any tests to>> establish the useful life of the glue joint. He stated that they haven't>> conducted specific tests to answer that question but that Titebond has been>> in use for over forty-five years with no reported failures. I asked about>> temperature extremes (I live in the Phoenix area) and he stated that at>> above 150 degrees F., bond strength drops by fifty percent - down to 18,000>> psi. He also stated that there is no difference in strength between>> Titebond and Titebond two - just that Titebond II is water resistant and>> Titebond is not. Just FYI.>>>> Mark Boynton>> Phoenix, AZ>>>> _______________________________________________________>>>-->>David B.Schober, CPE>Instructor, Aviation Maintenance>Fairmont State College>National Aerospace Education Center>Rt. 3 Box 13>Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503>(304) 842-8300>>________________________________________________________________________________Pietenpol-List: Re: Titebond adhesives
Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
My wings were built in the '43/44 time frame and have never been apart. They havebeen recovered severla times but Howard wings are skinned with plywood prior tofabric. They were built in the factory using Casein glue and it is still holdingupwell. The 300 deg F is no exageration. The dark green absorbs the heat energy andthe heat just continues to build. The wings are very tight, very few drain holesandonly 5 inspection panels per wing. I've gone out in the early morning, OAT about60deg. and washed the airplane. The water will just steam off the top wing surface.Two rules. Use an adhesive that will withstand temps upt at least 250 F. Painttheupper surfaces white or a light reflective color. After that, keep the airplaneoutof the sun as much as possible!Gary Gower wrote:> Does the adhesive will "recover" his strength, once the air of take off,> cools the wings down?> At 8,000 ft ASL will be as hard as "Cromoly" wings >> Now serious: I glue my props I carve for personal use, with Titebond II (4> years in perfect shape with Titebond [no Titebond II available here at that> time]) never "melt" in summer... could not notice any diference, remember> one thing the adhesives used in Mr Pietenpol's era, {some of them are still> flying to date}.>> "I think" (personal idea) those adhesives (casein glue, etc.) were maybe 50%> the strenght of what the Titebond, or any modern good glue, gets in summer> today...> Just a thought, Go figure....>> Saludos>> Gary Gower>> >If you are planning on using an adhesive that looses 50% of it's strength> at 150> >deg. F, I wouldn't want to fly your airplane! The inside of my wings will reach> >close to 300 deg. F in the summer sun. Granted they are painted dark green and> >absorb a lot of heat energy. It's amazing how much heat will build up> inside the> >structure when the sun is on it.> >> >mboynton(at)excite.com wrote:> >> >> To all:> >>> >> Just a little information to pass along.> >>> >> I've been considering using Titebond II adhesive instead of a two-part epoxy> >> (considerations of ease of use and cost). I spoke with a technical rep.> >> from Franklin, the manufacturer. I told him I would be making gusseted butt> >> joints with douglas fir and asked if Franklin had done any tests to> >> establish the useful life of the glue joint. He stated that they haven't> >> conducted specific tests to answer that question but that Titebond has been> >> in use for over forty-five years with no reported failures. I asked about> >> temperature extremes (I live in the Phoenix area) and he stated that at> >> above 150 degrees F., bond strength drops by fifty percent - down to 18,000> >> psi. He also stated that there is no difference in strength between> >> Titebond and Titebond two - just that Titebond II is water resistant and> >> Titebond is not. Just FYI.> >>> >> Mark Boynton> >> Phoenix, AZ> >>> >> _______________________________________________________> >> >> >> >--> >> >David B.Schober, CPE> >Instructor, Aviation Maintenance> >Fairmont State College> >National Aerospace Education Center> >Rt. 3 Box 13> >Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503> >(304) 842-8300> >> >> >> >> >> >--David B.Schober, CPEInstructor, Aviation MaintenanceFairmont State CollegeNational Aerospace Education CenterRt. 3 Box 13Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503(304) 842-8300________________________________________________________________________________
My wings were built in the '43/44 time frame and have never been apart. They havebeen recovered severla times but Howard wings are skinned with plywood prior tofabric. They were built in the factory using Casein glue and it is still holdingupwell. The 300 deg F is no exageration. The dark green absorbs the heat energy andthe heat just continues to build. The wings are very tight, very few drain holesandonly 5 inspection panels per wing. I've gone out in the early morning, OAT about60deg. and washed the airplane. The water will just steam off the top wing surface.Two rules. Use an adhesive that will withstand temps upt at least 250 F. Painttheupper surfaces white or a light reflective color. After that, keep the airplaneoutof the sun as much as possible!Gary Gower wrote:> Does the adhesive will "recover" his strength, once the air of take off,> cools the wings down?> At 8,000 ft ASL will be as hard as "Cromoly" wings
>> Now serious: I glue my props I carve for personal use, with Titebond II (4> years in perfect shape with Titebond [no Titebond II available here at that> time]) never "melt" in summer... could not notice any diference, remember> one thing the adhesives used in Mr Pietenpol's era, {some of them are still> flying to date}.>> "I think" (personal idea) those adhesives (casein glue, etc.) were maybe 50%> the strenght of what the Titebond, or any modern good glue, gets in summer> today...> Just a thought, Go figure....>> Saludos>> Gary Gower>> >If you are planning on using an adhesive that looses 50% of it's strength> at 150> >deg. F, I wouldn't want to fly your airplane! The inside of my wings will reach> >close to 300 deg. F in the summer sun. Granted they are painted dark green and> >absorb a lot of heat energy. It's amazing how much heat will build up> inside the> >structure when the sun is on it.> >> >mboynton(at)excite.com wrote:> >> >> To all:> >>> >> Just a little information to pass along.> >>> >> I've been considering using Titebond II adhesive instead of a two-part epoxy> >> (considerations of ease of use and cost). I spoke with a technical rep.> >> from Franklin, the manufacturer. I told him I would be making gusseted butt> >> joints with douglas fir and asked if Franklin had done any tests to> >> establish the useful life of the glue joint. He stated that they haven't> >> conducted specific tests to answer that question but that Titebond has been> >> in use for over forty-five years with no reported failures. I asked about> >> temperature extremes (I live in the Phoenix area) and he stated that at> >> above 150 degrees F., bond strength drops by fifty percent - down to 18,000> >> psi. He also stated that there is no difference in strength between> >> Titebond and Titebond two - just that Titebond II is water resistant and> >> Titebond is not. Just FYI.> >>> >> Mark Boynton> >> Phoenix, AZ> >>> >> _______________________________________________________> >> >> >> >--> >> >David B.Schober, CPE> >Instructor, Aviation Maintenance> >Fairmont State College> >National Aerospace Education Center> >Rt. 3 Box 13> >Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503> >(304) 842-8300> >> >> >> >> >> >--David B.Schober, CPEInstructor, Aviation MaintenanceFairmont State CollegeNational Aerospace Education CenterRt. 3 Box 13Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503(304) 842-8300________________________________________________________________________________Pietenpol-List: Re: Titebond adhesives
Original Posted By: Richard Winkel
To all:I can't remember if I mentioned this, but the tech rep I spoke to atFranklin did day that as the temperature comes down, the Titebond adhesivedoes recover its full strength. One observation: at 18,000 psi at 150degrees, this adhesive's tensile strength figure is still higher than thatof the wood it would be supporting.Mark BoyntonPhoenix, AZ> Does the adhesive will "recover" his strength, once the air of take off,> cools the wings down? > At 8,000 ft ASL will be as hard as "Cromoly" wings > > Now serious: I glue my props I carve for personal use, with Titebond II(4> years in perfect shape with Titebond [no Titebond II available here atthat> time]) never "melt" in summer... could not notice any diference,remember> one thing the adhesives used in Mr Pietenpol's era, {some of them arestill> flying to date}. > > "I think" (personal idea) those adhesives (casein glue, etc.) were maybe50%> the strenght of what the Titebond, or any modern good glue, gets insummer> today... > Just a thought, Go figure.... > > Saludos> > Gary Gower> > >If you are planning on using an adhesive that looses 50% of it'sstrength> at 150> >deg. F, I wouldn't want to fly your airplane! The inside of my wings willreach> >close to 300 deg. F in the summer sun. Granted they are painted darkgreen and> >absorb a lot of heat energy. It's amazing how much heat will build up> inside the> >structure when the sun is on it.> >> >mboynton(at)excite.com wrote:> >> >> To all:> >>> >> Just a little information to pass along.> >>> >> I've been considering using Titebond II adhesive instead of a two-partepoxy> >> (considerations of ease of use and cost). I spoke with a technicalrep.> >> from Franklin, the manufacturer. I told him I would be making gussetedbutt> >> joints with douglas fir and asked if Franklin had done any tests to> >> establish the useful life of the glue joint. He stated that theyhaven't> >> conducted specific tests to answer that question but that Titebond hasbeen> >> in use for over forty-five years with no reported failures. I askedabout> >> temperature extremes (I live in the Phoenix area) and he stated thatat> >> above 150 degrees F., bond strength drops by fifty percent - down to18,000> >> psi. He also stated that there is no difference in strength between> >> Titebond and Titebond two - just that Titebond II is water resistantand> >> Titebond is not. Just FYI.> >>> >> Mark Boynton> >> Phoenix, AZ> >>> >> _______________________________________________________> >> >> >> >--> >>**> >David B.Schober, CPE> >Instructor, Aviation Maintenance> >Fairmont State College> >National Aerospace Education Center> >Rt. 3 Box 13> >Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503> >(304) 842-8300> >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________
To all:I can't remember if I mentioned this, but the tech rep I spoke to atFranklin did day that as the temperature comes down, the Titebond adhesivedoes recover its full strength. One observation: at 18,000 psi at 150degrees, this adhesive's tensile strength figure is still higher than thatof the wood it would be supporting.Mark BoyntonPhoenix, AZ> Does the adhesive will "recover" his strength, once the air of take off,> cools the wings down? > At 8,000 ft ASL will be as hard as "Cromoly" wings
> > Now serious: I glue my props I carve for personal use, with Titebond II(4> years in perfect shape with Titebond [no Titebond II available here atthat> time]) never "melt" in summer... could not notice any diference,remember> one thing the adhesives used in Mr Pietenpol's era, {some of them arestill> flying to date}. > > "I think" (personal idea) those adhesives (casein glue, etc.) were maybe50%> the strenght of what the Titebond, or any modern good glue, gets insummer> today... > Just a thought, Go figure.... > > Saludos> > Gary Gower> > >If you are planning on using an adhesive that looses 50% of it'sstrength> at 150> >deg. F, I wouldn't want to fly your airplane! The inside of my wings willreach> >close to 300 deg. F in the summer sun. Granted they are painted darkgreen and> >absorb a lot of heat energy. It's amazing how much heat will build up> inside the> >structure when the sun is on it.> >> >mboynton(at)excite.com wrote:> >> >> To all:> >>> >> Just a little information to pass along.> >>> >> I've been considering using Titebond II adhesive instead of a two-partepoxy> >> (considerations of ease of use and cost). I spoke with a technicalrep.> >> from Franklin, the manufacturer. I told him I would be making gussetedbutt> >> joints with douglas fir and asked if Franklin had done any tests to> >> establish the useful life of the glue joint. He stated that theyhaven't> >> conducted specific tests to answer that question but that Titebond hasbeen> >> in use for over forty-five years with no reported failures. I askedabout> >> temperature extremes (I live in the Phoenix area) and he stated thatat> >> above 150 degrees F., bond strength drops by fifty percent - down to18,000> >> psi. He also stated that there is no difference in strength between> >> Titebond and Titebond two - just that Titebond II is water resistantand> >> Titebond is not. Just FYI.> >>> >> Mark Boynton> >> Phoenix, AZ> >>> >> _______________________________________________________> >> >> >> >--> >>**> >David B.Schober, CPE> >Instructor, Aviation Maintenance> >Fairmont State College> >National Aerospace Education Center> >Rt. 3 Box 13> >Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503> >(304) 842-8300> >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________