Original Posted By: Warren Shoun
Warren;You seem smarter than the average bear, Are the internalsmuch different on an "A" engine compared to an "8N" tractormotor? I have read there are almost interchangeable and thetractor motor is sleeved so it can be rebuilt more often.They definitely seem to have the same DNA________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: An 'A' engine
Pietenpol-List: Re: An 'A' engine
Original Posted By: Bill Talbert
Bill, I think you are on the right track here. From my reading, these 8Ntractor engines are still supporting most of the rural farm equipment inRussian, where Henry built a complete plant in the 20's. Also, so manywere built here, that between the tractor and the "A", there really area bunch of useable engines around, IF, you contact the local "A" club. The performance of this engine seems to be seriously improved if thehead is carefully worked over, with the major mind set that any engineis really an air pump, so get it to breath in and out in a balancedfashion and you have a winner. Grant's BPA webpage has a great reviewon various head and carb modifications. However, you quickly upset thetraditionalists when you port and polish, put in decent valves and smallblock chevy pistons and match the cfm to a good carb....of course youthen turn a 40 hp air pump into an 70-85 hp air pump...at the same rpm.What my progressive research led me personally to, was that what I waslooking to "improve" had already been done. Take a close look at theoriginal Jeep engine and the 151 Chevy engine. By the time you do thehead, valves, pistons, real bearings and match the CFM to a good carbfor air flow balance, you have a great modern and efficient engine andyour pocket book is quite a bit lighter. I ended up choosing a sleevedall aluminum Geo Metro 4 cylinder on the long fuselage variation. Forme, this really is an progressive educational experience. The Piet ismy first "real" plane project, and I intend to build at least one moreplane, so I am looking at a wide variety of applications to learn on thePiet. It is such a stout, basic, traditional and lovely old bird.Buttered popcorn or plain sir, and enjoy the movie!Best Regards,WarrenBill Talbert wrote:> Warren;>> You seem smarter than the average bear, Are the internals> much different on an "A" engine compared to an "8N" tractor> motor? I have read there are almost interchangeable and the> tractor motor is sleeved so it can be rebuilt more often.> They definitely seem to have the same DNA________________________________________________________________________________
Bill, I think you are on the right track here. From my reading, these 8Ntractor engines are still supporting most of the rural farm equipment inRussian, where Henry built a complete plant in the 20's. Also, so manywere built here, that between the tractor and the "A", there really area bunch of useable engines around, IF, you contact the local "A" club. The performance of this engine seems to be seriously improved if thehead is carefully worked over, with the major mind set that any engineis really an air pump, so get it to breath in and out in a balancedfashion and you have a winner. Grant's BPA webpage has a great reviewon various head and carb modifications. However, you quickly upset thetraditionalists when you port and polish, put in decent valves and smallblock chevy pistons and match the cfm to a good carb....of course youthen turn a 40 hp air pump into an 70-85 hp air pump...at the same rpm.What my progressive research led me personally to, was that what I waslooking to "improve" had already been done. Take a close look at theoriginal Jeep engine and the 151 Chevy engine. By the time you do thehead, valves, pistons, real bearings and match the CFM to a good carbfor air flow balance, you have a great modern and efficient engine andyour pocket book is quite a bit lighter. I ended up choosing a sleevedall aluminum Geo Metro 4 cylinder on the long fuselage variation. Forme, this really is an progressive educational experience. The Piet ismy first "real" plane project, and I intend to build at least one moreplane, so I am looking at a wide variety of applications to learn on thePiet. It is such a stout, basic, traditional and lovely old bird.Buttered popcorn or plain sir, and enjoy the movie!Best Regards,WarrenBill Talbert wrote:> Warren;>> You seem smarter than the average bear, Are the internals> much different on an "A" engine compared to an "8N" tractor> motor? I have read there are almost interchangeable and the> tractor motor is sleeved so it can be rebuilt more often.> They definitely seem to have the same DNA________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: An 'A' engine
Original Posted By: Warren Shoun
WarrenThe 8N motor is way to heavy for flight, what I was thinkingis using the "A" block bored for sleeves and bushings andgetting away from the babbit. As far as the purists, I betthey are not using vintage gas or plugs, so where do youdraw the line?. My hope is to do as you suggest, get morepower from the ford.thanks for the quick responseBill________________________________________________________________________________
WarrenThe 8N motor is way to heavy for flight, what I was thinkingis using the "A" block bored for sleeves and bushings andgetting away from the babbit. As far as the purists, I betthey are not using vintage gas or plugs, so where do youdraw the line?. My hope is to do as you suggest, get morepower from the ford.thanks for the quick responseBill________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: An 'A' engine
Original Posted By: Warren Shoun
Bill, With good machine shop work, I think that you will have a greatpower plant. Bored, balanced, polished and flow matched, with today'sfuel and ignition, you should see 70 hp without any stress or strain. Ihave seen one that dynoed out at 106 hp at 2250 rpm! The actualcompression of the old "A" was often only 4 or 5 to one so that it couldrun on the fuels of the day. If you build in even a 7 or 8 to one andmaintain it on a leak down test, you will do very well. You may want toconsider some type of bolt on harmonic balancer, and these old beautieswill run forever, and their sound is just good for the soul! Goodluck.WarrenBill Talbert wrote:> Warren>> The 8N motor is way to heavy for flight, what I was thinking> is using the "A" block bored for sleeves and bushings and> getting away from the babbit. As far as the purists, I bet> they are not using vintage gas or plugs, so where do you> draw the line?. My hope is to do as you suggest, get more> power from the ford.>> thanks for the quick response> Bill________________________________________________________________________________
Bill, With good machine shop work, I think that you will have a greatpower plant. Bored, balanced, polished and flow matched, with today'sfuel and ignition, you should see 70 hp without any stress or strain. Ihave seen one that dynoed out at 106 hp at 2250 rpm! The actualcompression of the old "A" was often only 4 or 5 to one so that it couldrun on the fuels of the day. If you build in even a 7 or 8 to one andmaintain it on a leak down test, you will do very well. You may want toconsider some type of bolt on harmonic balancer, and these old beautieswill run forever, and their sound is just good for the soul! Goodluck.WarrenBill Talbert wrote:> Warren>> The 8N motor is way to heavy for flight, what I was thinking> is using the "A" block bored for sleeves and bushings and> getting away from the babbit. As far as the purists, I bet> they are not using vintage gas or plugs, so where do you> draw the line?. My hope is to do as you suggest, get more> power from the ford.>> thanks for the quick response> Bill________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: An 'A' engine
Original Posted By: Warren Shoun
I'm not sure what you mean about 'leak down test'? Is this an ongoing testof the compression so that you know about wear?Greg YotzWarren Shoun wrote:> Bill,> With good machine shop work, I think that you will have a great> power plant. Bored, balanced, polished and flow matched, with today's> fuel and ignition, you should see 70 hp without any stress or strain. I> have seen one that dynoed out at 106 hp at 2250 rpm! The actual> compression of the old "A" was often only 4 or 5 to one so that it could> run on the fuels of the day. If you build in even a 7 or 8 to one and> maintain it on a leak down test, you will do very well. You may want to> consider some type of bolt on harmonic balancer, and these old beauties> will run forever, and their sound is just good for the soul! Good> luck.> Warren>> Bill Talbert wrote:>> > Warren> >> > The 8N motor is way to heavy for flight, what I was thinking> > is using the "A" block bored for sleeves and bushings and> > getting away from the babbit. As far as the purists, I bet> > they are not using vintage gas or plugs, so where do you> > draw the line?. My hope is to do as you suggest, get more> > power from the ford.> >> > thanks for the quick response> > Bill________________________________________________________________________________
I'm not sure what you mean about 'leak down test'? Is this an ongoing testof the compression so that you know about wear?Greg YotzWarren Shoun wrote:> Bill,> With good machine shop work, I think that you will have a great> power plant. Bored, balanced, polished and flow matched, with today's> fuel and ignition, you should see 70 hp without any stress or strain. I> have seen one that dynoed out at 106 hp at 2250 rpm! The actual> compression of the old "A" was often only 4 or 5 to one so that it could> run on the fuels of the day. If you build in even a 7 or 8 to one and> maintain it on a leak down test, you will do very well. You may want to> consider some type of bolt on harmonic balancer, and these old beauties> will run forever, and their sound is just good for the soul! Good> luck.> Warren>> Bill Talbert wrote:>> > Warren> >> > The 8N motor is way to heavy for flight, what I was thinking> > is using the "A" block bored for sleeves and bushings and> > getting away from the babbit. As far as the purists, I bet> > they are not using vintage gas or plugs, so where do you> > draw the line?. My hope is to do as you suggest, get more> > power from the ford.> >> > thanks for the quick response> > Bill________________________________________________________________________________