Original Posted By: Camera Man
Ive also seen aluminum tanks that were pop riveted with joints sealed with epoxy that worked well. russ----- Original Message ----- ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: fuel tank
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
I wonder which location is the safest center section or fuselage?If a person crashed landed which location would be more proneto rupture and feed a fire. Which tank would be less likely to rupturein a crash aluminum or fiberglass? What paint and covering systems least support combustion.Are there any other considerations to fire proof a homebuilt plane?________________________________________________________________________________
I wonder which location is the safest center section or fuselage?If a person crashed landed which location would be more proneto rupture and feed a fire. Which tank would be less likely to rupturein a crash aluminum or fiberglass? What paint and covering systems least support combustion.Are there any other considerations to fire proof a homebuilt plane?________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: Jim VanDervort
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank>Hello>What is your source for Ternplate? I haven't been able to find any.>Mike Madrid>>>Gary,>>I'm putting in both the center sect. tank and a nose tank. I may be nuts,>but I'm making them out of Ternplate. Didn't even know what that was BP (>before Piet). Located some in NJ by me. But yet to get into that.>>walt>>________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank>Hello>What is your source for Ternplate? I haven't been able to find any.>Mike Madrid>>>Gary,>>I'm putting in both the center sect. tank and a nose tank. I may be nuts,>but I'm making them out of Ternplate. Didn't even know what that was BP (>before Piet). Located some in NJ by me. But yet to get into that.>>walt>>________________________________________________________________________________
> Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank>>Passaic metal prod>5 Central Ave>Clifton, NJ 07011>(973) 546-9000> They had .015" thk. 36" x 50 ft. I think about $100.00. I didn't ask>about selling partial roll. This is probably 3 times what you need. If>they don't split the roll , maybe we can buy it and pass it around.>walt.>>-----Original Message----->From: Camera Man >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Date: Sunday, September 26, 1999 3:19 PM>Subject: Re: fuel tank>>>>Hello>>What is your source for Ternplate? I haven't been able to find any.>>Mike Madrid>>>>>Gary,>>>I'm putting in both the center sect. tank and a nose tank. I may benuts,>>but I'm making them out of Ternplate. Didn't even know what that was BP (>>before Piet). Located some in NJ by me. But yet to get into that.>>>walt>>>>>________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank>>Passaic metal prod>5 Central Ave>Clifton, NJ 07011>(973) 546-9000> They had .015" thk. 36" x 50 ft. I think about $100.00. I didn't ask>about selling partial roll. This is probably 3 times what you need. If>they don't split the roll , maybe we can buy it and pass it around.>walt.>>-----Original Message----->From: Camera Man >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Date: Sunday, September 26, 1999 3:19 PM>Subject: Re: fuel tank>>>>Hello>>What is your source for Ternplate? I haven't been able to find any.>>Mike Madrid>>>>>Gary,>>>I'm putting in both the center sect. tank and a nose tank. I may benuts,>>but I'm making them out of Ternplate. Didn't even know what that was BP (>>before Piet). Located some in NJ by me. But yet to get into that.>>>walt>>>>>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By:>> Gary Leopold
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank>That is the wrong address, now.>He moved.>It is: >>16117 Hafeman Road>Brodhead, WI. 53520>608-897-8076>>>JImV.>>--- Earl Myers wrote:>> THE FELLA IN BROADHEAD:>> >> TED DAVIS>> N. 4031 CO. RD. "E">> BROADHEAD, WISC. 53520>> -----Original Message-----
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank>That is the wrong address, now.>He moved.>It is: >>16117 Hafeman Road>Brodhead, WI. 53520>608-897-8076>>>JImV.>>--- Earl Myers wrote:>> THE FELLA IN BROADHEAD:>> >> TED DAVIS>> N. 4031 CO. RD. "E">> BROADHEAD, WISC. 53520>> -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: fuel tank
Original Posted By: robin goodfellow
What does everyone think about the center section wing tank?What does everyone think about the center sectionwingtank?________________________________________________________________________________
What does everyone think about the center section wing tank?What does everyone think about the center sectionwingtank?________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: robin goodfellow
There is a guy named Ted in Brodhead with a ratty J-5that welds them. He gave me some dual, but I can notread his last name in my logbook. Anyways, if you seea guy with a red&white J-5, ask him. I will ask acouple of buddies if they know his last name &address. By the way, I am about to start a Air Camper per the1933 plans. anyone got a spare set of fittings? Thanx!_danbadger--- Gary Leopold wrote:> What does everyone think about the center section> wing tank?> ________________________________________________________________________________
There is a guy named Ted in Brodhead with a ratty J-5that welds them. He gave me some dual, but I can notread his last name in my logbook. Anyways, if you seea guy with a red&white J-5, ask him. I will ask acouple of buddies if they know his last name &address. By the way, I am about to start a Air Camper per the1933 plans. anyone got a spare set of fittings? Thanx!_danbadger--- Gary Leopold wrote:> What does everyone think about the center section> wing tank?> ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: john hodnette
I think you are talking about Ted Davis.Mike Madrid>There is a guy named Ted in Brodhead with a ratty J-5>that welds them. He gave me some dual, but I can not>read his last name in my logbook. Anyways, if you see>a guy with a red&white J-5, ask him. I will ask a>couple of buddies if they know his last name &>address.> By the way, I am about to start a Air Camper per the>1933 plans. anyone got a spare set of fittings? Thanx!>_danbadger________________________________________________________________________________
I think you are talking about Ted Davis.Mike Madrid>There is a guy named Ted in Brodhead with a ratty J-5>that welds them. He gave me some dual, but I can not>read his last name in my logbook. Anyways, if you see>a guy with a red&white J-5, ask him. I will ask a>couple of buddies if they know his last name &>address.> By the way, I am about to start a Air Camper per the>1933 plans. anyone got a spare set of fittings? Thanx!>_danbadger________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: Gary Leopold
Gary,I'm putting in both the center sect. tank and a nose tank. I may benuts, but I'm making them out of Ternplate. Didn't even know what thatwas BP ( before Piet). Located some in NJ by me. But yet to get intothat.walt -----Original Message-----
Gary,I'm putting in both the center sect. tank and a nose tank. I may benuts, but I'm making them out of Ternplate. Didn't even know what thatwas BP ( before Piet). Located some in NJ by me. But yet to get intothat.walt -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: Larry Ragan
Hello What is your source for Ternplate? I haven't been able to find any.Mike Madrid>Gary,>I'm putting in both the center sect. tank and a nose tank. I may be nuts,but I'm making them out of Ternplate. Didn't even know what that was BP (before Piet). Located some in NJ by me. But yet to get into that.>walt________________________________________________________________________________
Hello What is your source for Ternplate? I haven't been able to find any.Mike Madrid>Gary,>I'm putting in both the center sect. tank and a nose tank. I may be nuts,but I'm making them out of Ternplate. Didn't even know what that was BP (before Piet). Located some in NJ by me. But yet to get into that.>walt________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: Gary Leopold
THE FELLA IN BROADHEAD:TED DAVISN. 4031 CO. RD. "E"BROADHEAD, WISC. 53520 -----Original Message-----
THE FELLA IN BROADHEAD:TED DAVISN. 4031 CO. RD. "E"BROADHEAD, WISC. 53520 -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: Camera Man
Mike,Passaic metal prod5 Central AveClifton, NJ 07011(973) 546-9000 They had .015" thk. 36" x 50 ft. I think about $100.00. I didn't askabout selling partial roll. This is probably 3 times what you need. Ifthey don't split the roll , maybe we can buy it and pass it around.walt.-----Original Message-----
Mike,Passaic metal prod5 Central AveClifton, NJ 07011(973) 546-9000 They had .015" thk. 36" x 50 ft. I think about $100.00. I didn't askabout selling partial roll. This is probably 3 times what you need. Ifthey don't split the roll , maybe we can buy it and pass it around.walt.-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: Jim VanDervort
His name is Ted davis.Phone # is:608-897-8076.JimV.--- robin goodfellow wrote:> There is a guy named Ted in Brodhead with a ratty> J-5> that welds them. He gave me some dual, but I can not> read his last name in my logbook. Anyways, if you> see> a guy with a red&white J-5, ask him. I will ask a> couple of buddies if they know his last name &> address.> By the way, I am about to start a Air Camper per> the> 1933 plans. anyone got a spare set of fittings?> Thanx!> _danbadger> > --- Gary Leopold wrote:> > What does everyone think about the center section> > wing tank?> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
His name is Ted davis.Phone # is:608-897-8076.JimV.--- robin goodfellow wrote:> There is a guy named Ted in Brodhead with a ratty> J-5> that welds them. He gave me some dual, but I can not> read his last name in my logbook. Anyways, if you> see> a guy with a red&white J-5, ask him. I will ask a> couple of buddies if they know his last name &> address.> By the way, I am about to start a Air Camper per> the> 1933 plans. anyone got a spare set of fittings?> Thanx!> _danbadger> > --- Gary Leopold wrote:> > What does everyone think about the center section> > wing tank?> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By:> Gary Leopold
That is the wrong address, now.He moved.It is: 16117 Hafeman RoadBrodhead, WI. 53520608-897-8076JImV.--- Earl Myers wrote:> THE FELLA IN BROADHEAD:> > TED DAVIS> N. 4031 CO. RD. "E"> BROADHEAD, WISC. 53520> -----Original Message-----
That is the wrong address, now.He moved.It is: 16117 Hafeman RoadBrodhead, WI. 53520608-897-8076JImV.--- Earl Myers wrote:> THE FELLA IN BROADHEAD:> > TED DAVIS> N. 4031 CO. RD. "E"> BROADHEAD, WISC. 53520> -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: "Jack Phillips (EUS)"
On the subject of fuel tanks....Has anyone weighed their completed wing tank? I am interested in knowing the weight difference between an aluminum tank and a fiberglass one. I am not there yet, but have been thinking that I would like to try and end up with an aluminum one. It would be easier for me to get set up to build it using glass...but I am guessing I'd probably wind up with a heavier part. I am putting a lot of effort into keeping everything as light as possible within reason. I will do what it takes to get aluminum if it means I'd save significant weight. Terry B________________________________________________________________________________
On the subject of fuel tanks....Has anyone weighed their completed wing tank? I am interested in knowing the weight difference between an aluminum tank and a fiberglass one. I am not there yet, but have been thinking that I would like to try and end up with an aluminum one. It would be easier for me to get set up to build it using glass...but I am guessing I'd probably wind up with a heavier part. I am putting a lot of effort into keeping everything as light as possible within reason. I will do what it takes to get aluminum if it means I'd save significant weight. Terry B________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: Jim VanDervort
THANKS MR. JIM, WILL UPDATE MY RECORDS....!-----Original Message-----
THANKS MR. JIM, WILL UPDATE MY RECORDS....!-----Original Message-----
>> Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: WacoTpilot(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: terne plate>>-----Original Message----->From: walter evans >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Date: Sunday, September 26, 1999 7:16 PM>Subject: Re: fuel tank>>>>>>Passaic metal prod>>5 Central Ave>>Clifton, NJ 07011>>(973) 546-9000>> They had .015" thk. 36" x 50 ft. I think about $100.00. I didn't ask>>about selling partial roll. This is probably 3 times what you need. If>>they don't split the roll , maybe we can buy it and pass it around.>>walt.>>>>-----Original Message----->>From: Camera Man >>To: Pietenpol Discussion >>Date: Sunday, September 26, 1999 3:19 PM>>Subject: Re: fuel tank>>>>>>>Hello>>>What is your source for Ternplate? I haven't been able to find any.>>>Mike Madrid>>>>>>>Gary,>>>>I'm putting in both the center sect. tank and a nose tank. I may be>nuts,>>>but I'm making them out of Ternplate. Didn't even know what that was BP(>>>before Piet). Located some in NJ by me. But yet to get into that.>>>>walt>>>>>>>>>________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pietenpol-List: terne plate>>-----Original Message----->From: walter evans >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Date: Sunday, September 26, 1999 7:16 PM>Subject: Re: fuel tank>>>>>>Passaic metal prod>>5 Central Ave>>Clifton, NJ 07011>>(973) 546-9000>> They had .015" thk. 36" x 50 ft. I think about $100.00. I didn't ask>>about selling partial roll. This is probably 3 times what you need. If>>they don't split the roll , maybe we can buy it and pass it around.>>walt.>>>>-----Original Message----->>From: Camera Man >>To: Pietenpol Discussion >>Date: Sunday, September 26, 1999 3:19 PM>>Subject: Re: fuel tank>>>>>>>Hello>>>What is your source for Ternplate? I haven't been able to find any.>>>Mike Madrid>>>>>>>Gary,>>>>I'm putting in both the center sect. tank and a nose tank. I may be>nuts,>>>but I'm making them out of Ternplate. Didn't even know what that was BP(>>>before Piet). Located some in NJ by me. But yet to get into that.>>>>walt>>>>>>>>>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: RE: fuel tank
Original Posted By:> walter evans [SMTP:wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net]
Walter,Even with ternplate you might want to use a sloshing compound to seal thetank. I've got a 52 year old Cessna 140 (yeah, it's a Spam-can, but atleast it doesn't have one of those training wheels up front) with theoriginal ternplate fuel tanks. I'm beginning to get considerable rustflaking every time I drain the gascolator. of course, you could look at itlike 50+ years is a pretty good endorsement. Ternplate is pretty heavy,when compared with aluminum. I'm planning to make my tank out of 5052aluminum which I will pop-rivet together, then take to a professional welderto weld it up. That way I know it will fit in the centersection, and I canput in all the baffling I need.> -----Original Message-----
Walter,Even with ternplate you might want to use a sloshing compound to seal thetank. I've got a 52 year old Cessna 140 (yeah, it's a Spam-can, but atleast it doesn't have one of those training wheels up front) with theoriginal ternplate fuel tanks. I'm beginning to get considerable rustflaking every time I drain the gascolator. of course, you could look at itlike 50+ years is a pretty good endorsement. Ternplate is pretty heavy,when compared with aluminum. I'm planning to make my tank out of 5052aluminum which I will pop-rivet together, then take to a professional welderto weld it up. That way I know it will fit in the centersection, and I canput in all the baffling I need.> -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: Gary Leopold
Walt Evans,Can you post where you found terne plate? I've only been able to find itin large quantities.Thanks, Greg Cardinal>>> walter evans 09/26 1:00 PM >>>Gary,I'm putting in both the center sect. tank and a nose tank. I may be nuts,but I'm making them out of Ternplate. Didn't even know what that was BP (before Piet). Located some in NJ by me. But yet to get into that.walt -----Original Message-----
Walt Evans,Can you post where you found terne plate? I've only been able to find itin large quantities.Thanks, Greg Cardinal>>> walter evans 09/26 1:00 PM >>>Gary,I'm putting in both the center sect. tank and a nose tank. I may be nuts,but I'm making them out of Ternplate. Didn't even know what that was BP (before Piet). Located some in NJ by me. But yet to get into that.walt -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: Ken Beanlands
We compared teh weights of my fiberglass Christavia fuel tank to analuminum one. The weight difference was neglidgable. I used a 1/4" foamboard/fiberglass sandwich construction. It was very easy to do and has theadvantages of being double walled, fatigue resistant and insulated(prevents some condensation).KenOn Sun, 26 Sep 1999 BARNSTMR(at)aol.com wrote:> On the subject of fuel tanks....Has anyone weighed their completed wing tank?> I am interested in knowing the weight difference between an aluminum tank > and a fiberglass one. I am not there yet, but have been thinking that I > would like to try and end up with an aluminum one. It would be easier for me> to get set up to build it using glass...but I am guessing I'd probably wind > up with a heavier part. I am putting a lot of effort into keeping everything> as light as possible within reason. I will do what it takes to get aluminum> if it means I'd save significant weight.> Terry B> Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)Calgary, Alberta, CanadaChristavia MK 1 C-GREN________________________________________________________________________________
We compared teh weights of my fiberglass Christavia fuel tank to analuminum one. The weight difference was neglidgable. I used a 1/4" foamboard/fiberglass sandwich construction. It was very easy to do and has theadvantages of being double walled, fatigue resistant and insulated(prevents some condensation).KenOn Sun, 26 Sep 1999 BARNSTMR(at)aol.com wrote:> On the subject of fuel tanks....Has anyone weighed their completed wing tank?> I am interested in knowing the weight difference between an aluminum tank > and a fiberglass one. I am not there yet, but have been thinking that I > would like to try and end up with an aluminum one. It would be easier for me> to get set up to build it using glass...but I am guessing I'd probably wind > up with a heavier part. I am putting a lot of effort into keeping everything> as light as possible within reason. I will do what it takes to get aluminum> if it means I'd save significant weight.> Terry B> Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)Calgary, Alberta, CanadaChristavia MK 1 C-GREN________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: RE: fuel tank
Original Posted By:> Ken Beanlands [SMTP:kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca]
One other consideration when trying to decide between fiberglass and metal (eitheraluminum or ternplate) - Fiberglass tanks offer no good way to dissipate astatic electrical charge. When refueling, the flow of gasoline from a nozzlecan build up a substantial charge (thousands of volts) in a hurry. With a metaltank grounded to the structure and through the static clip at the fuel pumpto earth ground, the charge can be safely dissipated. With a fiberglass tank,the tank can retain the charge for minutes, which can lead to a disastrousspark and fire or explosion. This can be mitigated to some extent by providinga path to ground for any charge in the tank or fuel. The best way is to embedmetal wires in the tank and ground them to a large chunk of metal (the engine).Otherwise, you might see several years worth of work go up in flames.> -----Original Message-----
One other consideration when trying to decide between fiberglass and metal (eitheraluminum or ternplate) - Fiberglass tanks offer no good way to dissipate astatic electrical charge. When refueling, the flow of gasoline from a nozzlecan build up a substantial charge (thousands of volts) in a hurry. With a metaltank grounded to the structure and through the static clip at the fuel pumpto earth ground, the charge can be safely dissipated. With a fiberglass tank,the tank can retain the charge for minutes, which can lead to a disastrousspark and fire or explosion. This can be mitigated to some extent by providinga path to ground for any charge in the tank or fuel. The best way is to embedmetal wires in the tank and ground them to a large chunk of metal (the engine).Otherwise, you might see several years worth of work go up in flames.> -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By:> > walter evans [SMTP:wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net]
Just a note on tanks: most areas of the country offer adult education classes atthe local vo-tech. Take a welding class that iffers TIG and build your takn inclass. Very satisfying learning a new skill, no need to buy expensive machines,and you still get a quality job.Jack Phillips (EUS) wrote:> Walter,>> Even with ternplate you might want to use a sloshing compound to seal the> tank. I've got a 52 year old Cessna 140 (yeah, it's a Spam-can, but at> least it doesn't have one of those training wheels up front) with the> original ternplate fuel tanks. I'm beginning to get considerable rust> flaking every time I drain the gascolator. of course, you could look at it> like 50+ years is a pretty good endorsement. Ternplate is pretty heavy,> when compared with aluminum. I'm planning to make my tank out of 5052> aluminum which I will pop-rivet together, then take to a professional welder> to weld it up. That way I know it will fit in the centersection, and I can> put in all the baffling I need.>>> > -----Original Message-----
Just a note on tanks: most areas of the country offer adult education classes atthe local vo-tech. Take a welding class that iffers TIG and build your takn inclass. Very satisfying learning a new skill, no need to buy expensive machines,and you still get a quality job.Jack Phillips (EUS) wrote:> Walter,>> Even with ternplate you might want to use a sloshing compound to seal the> tank. I've got a 52 year old Cessna 140 (yeah, it's a Spam-can, but at> least it doesn't have one of those training wheels up front) with the> original ternplate fuel tanks. I'm beginning to get considerable rust> flaking every time I drain the gascolator. of course, you could look at it> like 50+ years is a pretty good endorsement. Ternplate is pretty heavy,> when compared with aluminum. I'm planning to make my tank out of 5052> aluminum which I will pop-rivet together, then take to a professional welder> to weld it up. That way I know it will fit in the centersection, and I can> put in all the baffling I need.>>> > -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: RE: fuel tank
Original Posted By:> > Ken Beanlands [SMTP:kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca]
Nonsense. Fiberglass tanks, and rubber fuel bladders are employed on numerouscommercial and kitplane alike. While not as good at disipating static,the problem is easy to control by electrically bonding the tank. Most ofthe tanks use some sort of metalic filler neck. By running a few thinaluminum straps over the tank and electrically bonding them to the fillerneck and airframe, you can safely ground the plane, and the tank, at thepumps. The main thing is to prevent a sparc (Err, spark, I've been workingon Sun systems too long) between the nozzel and the filler neck. With aPiet, the same consideration must be taken, even with an aluminum tank. The tank is sitting within an wooden structure and is generallyelectrically isolated from the airframe by anti-chafing stuff like rubberstrips. This will not allow the tank to discharge to ground until you givea it a path, like a steel fuel nozzel. Either way, you have toelectrically bond the tank to the structure. Personally, I plan on addingsome thin aluminum tabs to the boot cowl that will be in contact with thetank to solve this problem. Little tufts of steel wool between the tankand boot cowl will also work. Aluminum tanks, on the other hand , have a nasty tendancy of developingfatigue cracking that is not a problem with fiberglass. So far, I seen anumber of planes that have developed leaks in thier aluminum tanks. TheCitabria I was flying this spring ended up with 2 leaks and the PA-18 wasalso leaking before it crashed. A friend of ours replaced his leakingaluminum tanks in his 172 with STC'd fiberglass ones and had never had aproblem. If you have a nose mounted or even center section tank, the leakwill end up filling your cockpit with fuel. If this happens in flight..... Ken.On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Jack Phillips (EUS) wrote:> One other consideration when trying to decide between fiberglass and> metal (either aluminum or ternplate) - Fiberglass tanks offer no good> way to dissipate a static electrical charge. When refueling, the flow> of gasoline from a nozzle can build up a substantial charge (thousands> of volts) in a hurry. With a metal tank grounded to the structure and> through the static clip at the fuel pump to earth ground, the charge can> be safely dissipated. With a fiberglass tank, the tank can retain the> charge for mi> > > -----Original Message-----
Nonsense. Fiberglass tanks, and rubber fuel bladders are employed on numerouscommercial and kitplane alike. While not as good at disipating static,the problem is easy to control by electrically bonding the tank. Most ofthe tanks use some sort of metalic filler neck. By running a few thinaluminum straps over the tank and electrically bonding them to the fillerneck and airframe, you can safely ground the plane, and the tank, at thepumps. The main thing is to prevent a sparc (Err, spark, I've been workingon Sun systems too long) between the nozzel and the filler neck. With aPiet, the same consideration must be taken, even with an aluminum tank. The tank is sitting within an wooden structure and is generallyelectrically isolated from the airframe by anti-chafing stuff like rubberstrips. This will not allow the tank to discharge to ground until you givea it a path, like a steel fuel nozzel. Either way, you have toelectrically bond the tank to the structure. Personally, I plan on addingsome thin aluminum tabs to the boot cowl that will be in contact with thetank to solve this problem. Little tufts of steel wool between the tankand boot cowl will also work. Aluminum tanks, on the other hand , have a nasty tendancy of developingfatigue cracking that is not a problem with fiberglass. So far, I seen anumber of planes that have developed leaks in thier aluminum tanks. TheCitabria I was flying this spring ended up with 2 leaks and the PA-18 wasalso leaking before it crashed. A friend of ours replaced his leakingaluminum tanks in his 172 with STC'd fiberglass ones and had never had aproblem. If you have a nose mounted or even center section tank, the leakwill end up filling your cockpit with fuel. If this happens in flight..... Ken.On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Jack Phillips (EUS) wrote:> One other consideration when trying to decide between fiberglass and> metal (either aluminum or ternplate) - Fiberglass tanks offer no good> way to dissipate a static electrical charge. When refueling, the flow> of gasoline from a nozzle can build up a substantial charge (thousands> of volts) in a hurry. With a metal tank grounded to the structure and> through the static clip at the fuel pump to earth ground, the charge can> be safely dissipated. With a fiberglass tank, the tank can retain the> charge for mi> > > -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: OFFLINE:RE: fuel tank
Original Posted By: Copinfo
Ken,Where can I find out more about constructing fiberglass fuel tanks? I have heard of them for years, and now that I am building a Cuby I have taken a new interest in them. I want to install two wing tanks. How is your Christavia set-up?Thanks,Todd ChisumTulsa, OklahomaWag Aero Super Sport project________________________________________________________________________________
Ken,Where can I find out more about constructing fiberglass fuel tanks? I have heard of them for years, and now that I am building a Cuby I have taken a new interest in them. I want to install two wing tanks. How is your Christavia set-up?Thanks,Todd ChisumTulsa, OklahomaWag Aero Super Sport project________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: Peter P Frantz
I have a fiberglass tank and it weights next to nothing. I never weighed itand I'm sure it's a little heavier than aluminum, but not much. To have onebuilt from Aluminum is $250.00 to $300.00. The cost to build the fiberglasswas around $5.00. I also have the tank in the center wing. No weight shiftfor me. Since there is no trim system I would stick with a center tank.Actually I'd put in a trim system.Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.ComTim CunninghamDes Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510-->On the subject of fuel tanks....Has anyone weighed their completed wingtank?> I am interested in knowing the weight difference between an aluminum tank>and a fiberglass one. I am not there yet, but have been thinking that I>would like to try and end up with an aluminum one. It would be easier forme>to get set up to build it using glass...but I am guessing I'd probably wind>up with a heavier part. I am putting a lot of effort into keepingeverything>as light as possible within reason. I will do what it takes to getaluminum>if it means I'd save significant weight.> Terry B________________________________________________________________________________
I have a fiberglass tank and it weights next to nothing. I never weighed itand I'm sure it's a little heavier than aluminum, but not much. To have onebuilt from Aluminum is $250.00 to $300.00. The cost to build the fiberglasswas around $5.00. I also have the tank in the center wing. No weight shiftfor me. Since there is no trim system I would stick with a center tank.Actually I'd put in a trim system.Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.ComTim CunninghamDes Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510-->On the subject of fuel tanks....Has anyone weighed their completed wingtank?> I am interested in knowing the weight difference between an aluminum tank>and a fiberglass one. I am not there yet, but have been thinking that I>would like to try and end up with an aluminum one. It would be easier forme>to get set up to build it using glass...but I am guessing I'd probably wind>up with a heavier part. I am putting a lot of effort into keepingeverything>as light as possible within reason. I will do what it takes to getaluminum>if it means I'd save significant weight.> Terry B________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: OFFLINE:RE: fuel tank
Original Posted By: Ken Beanlands
Here's a website with a detailed account of the construction of a fiberglass fuel tank for a KRS2. If you have a look around the home-page index, you'll find extensive information for composite construction techniques. For example, on other pages, he has documented the construction of the sandwich panels from which this tank is assembled. http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford/kft.htm ... otmail.com on 09/27/99 10:46:00 AMcc: (bcc: Peter P Frantz/West/Aerospace/US)Subject: Pietenpol-List: OFFLINE:RE: fuel tankKen,Where can I find out more about constructing fiberglass fuel tanks? I haveheard of them for years, and now that I am building a Cuby I have taken anew interest in them. I want to install two wing tanks. How is yourChristavia set-up?Thanks,Todd ChisumTulsa, OklahomaWag Aero Super Sport project________________________________________________________________________________
Here's a website with a detailed account of the construction of a fiberglass fuel tank for a KRS2. If you have a look around the home-page index, you'll find extensive information for composite construction techniques. For example, on other pages, he has documented the construction of the sandwich panels from which this tank is assembled. http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford/kft.htm ... otmail.com on 09/27/99 10:46:00 AMcc: (bcc: Peter P Frantz/West/Aerospace/US)Subject: Pietenpol-List: OFFLINE:RE: fuel tankKen,Where can I find out more about constructing fiberglass fuel tanks? I haveheard of them for years, and now that I am building a Cuby I have taken anew interest in them. I want to install two wing tanks. How is yourChristavia set-up?Thanks,Todd ChisumTulsa, OklahomaWag Aero Super Sport project________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: OFFLINE:RE: fuel tank
Original Posted By: Copinfo
I have a single nose tank of 24 gallons. The tank is pieced together fromfoam/fiberglass sandwich boards. I got the instructions from the guysat the old Alexander Aeroplane company, now Aircraft Spruce East. The boards are made by smearing a fiberglass slurry over teh 1/4" foamboards. When the slurry is tacky, 2 layers of glass cloth are laid up witha peel ply laminated to the top. When the epoxy sets, the peel ply isremoved and the other side is done. For the curved top surface, Ilaminated one side, tacked it in place, and then laminated the top. Whenit hardens, remove the top. 2 sided tape can be used to hold it in placewhile you do this. This will form the curve nicely.After the "boards" are all done, cut them out to form the sides and bottomof the tank. They are easily cut with a bandsaw. I used a Hexel 5 minutestructural epoxy to glue the sides and bottom together as described in theinstructions. Once all the sides are done, a misture of flox and epoxy ismixed to form a filler material to curve the inside corners of the tank. Two tapes are laid up on top of the fillet. I prefer to do it while thefillet material underneath is still wet. It allows the tales to take theshape easily. THe tapes are laied up with a narrow one first (2" or so) and a wider one on top (3") followed by peel ply. At this point, the topstill isn't applied. Next, any baffles you want can be added. THe samefoam/epoxy board is used. Be sure to seal any exposed foam with epoxy. Youwill get exposed foam when you cut the baffle to allow fuel to flowthrough. After it's glued in place, tapes should be added to secure it.Next comes the hard points for things like filler necks, drains, vents,fuel senders, etc. The easiest way to make them is to cut one layer offiberglass on the tank where they are to be installed. The hole should beabout 1" radius larger than the hole required ( a 1/2" hole for a drainwill need a 2.5" dia hole). Remove the glass and foam so that only thesingle glass layer is left on the opposite side. When you cut it, be sureto bevel teh edges at a 45 degree angle throught hte foam. It will makethe lay-up easier. cut out 10-12 round patches about the same diameter asthe hole. Two more patched are cut out at 2" larger radius and 4" largerradius. The hole is filled with the small patches soaked in resign. Thetop two larger patches are added with the largest on top followed by peelply.The next step is to add your fuel vent lines, filler necks, etc to theboards. Now you are ready to seal the tank up by adding the top. The topdoes not get the same fillet treatment inside as there is no way to get arit once it's in place. Fortunately, the fuel pressure here is less thanthe bottom or sides making it ideal as the last piece. Be sure to useliberal amounts of epoxy on this joint, though. THe foam needs to be fullysealed at the edges.Now that that is all done, tapes need to be added along the outside of thetank. Since the tapes won't take a sharp curve, you will need to sand theedges to form a curve. Then, the same procedure is used with thte 2" and3" tapes as with the inside. Be sure to add peel ply. BTW, the reason for the peel ply (most amazing stuff) is two fold. First,as you pull it off the surface, it leaves a rough surface behind due tothe weave of teh ply. This makes a good surface to lay up the next layeron, such as reinforcement tapes. Second, much of the excess resign can beforced out of the glass cloth and on top of the peel ply. This getsstripped away after withthe ply. It took me a while to understand that thepeel ply will just peel right off the epoxy surface after it hardened. Fora neat light show, turn out the lights as you peel it away, the staticdischarge creates a glowing blue line at teh edge as you peel it back. Maybe interesting for the kids ;-)Anyway, if you have any other questions, give me a shout.KenOn Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Todd Chisum wrote:> Ken,> > Where can I find out more about constructing fiberglass fuel tanks? I have > heard of them for years, and now that I am building a Cuby I have taken a > new interest in them. I want to install two wing tanks. How is your > Christavia set-up?> > Thanks,> > Todd Chisum> Tulsa, Oklahoma> Wag Aero Super Sport project> > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)Calgary, Alberta, CanadaChristavia MK 1 C-GREN________________________________________________________________________________
I have a single nose tank of 24 gallons. The tank is pieced together fromfoam/fiberglass sandwich boards. I got the instructions from the guysat the old Alexander Aeroplane company, now Aircraft Spruce East. The boards are made by smearing a fiberglass slurry over teh 1/4" foamboards. When the slurry is tacky, 2 layers of glass cloth are laid up witha peel ply laminated to the top. When the epoxy sets, the peel ply isremoved and the other side is done. For the curved top surface, Ilaminated one side, tacked it in place, and then laminated the top. Whenit hardens, remove the top. 2 sided tape can be used to hold it in placewhile you do this. This will form the curve nicely.After the "boards" are all done, cut them out to form the sides and bottomof the tank. They are easily cut with a bandsaw. I used a Hexel 5 minutestructural epoxy to glue the sides and bottom together as described in theinstructions. Once all the sides are done, a misture of flox and epoxy ismixed to form a filler material to curve the inside corners of the tank. Two tapes are laid up on top of the fillet. I prefer to do it while thefillet material underneath is still wet. It allows the tales to take theshape easily. THe tapes are laied up with a narrow one first (2" or so) and a wider one on top (3") followed by peel ply. At this point, the topstill isn't applied. Next, any baffles you want can be added. THe samefoam/epoxy board is used. Be sure to seal any exposed foam with epoxy. Youwill get exposed foam when you cut the baffle to allow fuel to flowthrough. After it's glued in place, tapes should be added to secure it.Next comes the hard points for things like filler necks, drains, vents,fuel senders, etc. The easiest way to make them is to cut one layer offiberglass on the tank where they are to be installed. The hole should beabout 1" radius larger than the hole required ( a 1/2" hole for a drainwill need a 2.5" dia hole). Remove the glass and foam so that only thesingle glass layer is left on the opposite side. When you cut it, be sureto bevel teh edges at a 45 degree angle throught hte foam. It will makethe lay-up easier. cut out 10-12 round patches about the same diameter asthe hole. Two more patched are cut out at 2" larger radius and 4" largerradius. The hole is filled with the small patches soaked in resign. Thetop two larger patches are added with the largest on top followed by peelply.The next step is to add your fuel vent lines, filler necks, etc to theboards. Now you are ready to seal the tank up by adding the top. The topdoes not get the same fillet treatment inside as there is no way to get arit once it's in place. Fortunately, the fuel pressure here is less thanthe bottom or sides making it ideal as the last piece. Be sure to useliberal amounts of epoxy on this joint, though. THe foam needs to be fullysealed at the edges.Now that that is all done, tapes need to be added along the outside of thetank. Since the tapes won't take a sharp curve, you will need to sand theedges to form a curve. Then, the same procedure is used with thte 2" and3" tapes as with the inside. Be sure to add peel ply. BTW, the reason for the peel ply (most amazing stuff) is two fold. First,as you pull it off the surface, it leaves a rough surface behind due tothe weave of teh ply. This makes a good surface to lay up the next layeron, such as reinforcement tapes. Second, much of the excess resign can beforced out of the glass cloth and on top of the peel ply. This getsstripped away after withthe ply. It took me a while to understand that thepeel ply will just peel right off the epoxy surface after it hardened. Fora neat light show, turn out the lights as you peel it away, the staticdischarge creates a glowing blue line at teh edge as you peel it back. Maybe interesting for the kids ;-)Anyway, if you have any other questions, give me a shout.KenOn Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Todd Chisum wrote:> Ken,> > Where can I find out more about constructing fiberglass fuel tanks? I have > heard of them for years, and now that I am building a Cuby I have taken a > new interest in them. I want to install two wing tanks. How is your > Christavia set-up?> > Thanks,> > Todd Chisum> Tulsa, Oklahoma> Wag Aero Super Sport project> > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)Calgary, Alberta, CanadaChristavia MK 1 C-GREN________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: OFFLINE:RE: fuel tank
Original Posted By: Jim VanDervort
>Tony Bingelis has a step by step method for>fabricating fiberglass tanks in one of his books. >Don't know which one off the top of my head, but they>are all worth having anyway.>>Dave>Dave- A big Amen to that statement above. His books cananswer 98% of all of our questions. Ref: fuel tank- I put my alum. tank behind the firewall and made thecenter section a baggage area with a large aluminum cover hinged w/piano hinge at the front spar and latched at the back in two spots.It's nice not to have to get a ladder to fuel or haul 5 gal. cans upthere. I made a poster board mock up of a tank that suited my needsand had an experienced alum. welder make it up with fill and drain fittings.Mike C. Tony Bingelis has a step by step method forfabricating fiberglass tanks in one of his books. Don't know which one off the top of my head, but theyare all worth having anyway.DaveDave- A big Amen to that statement above. His books cananswer 98% of all of our questions. Ref: fuel tank- I put my alum. tank behind the firewall and made thecenter section a baggage area with a large aluminum cover hinged w/piano hinge at the front spar and latched at the back in two spots.It's nice not to have to get a ladder to fuel or haul 5 gal. cans upthere. I made a poster board mock up of a tank that suited myneedsand had an experienced alum. welder make it up with fill and drainfittings.Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
>Tony Bingelis has a step by step method for>fabricating fiberglass tanks in one of his books. >Don't know which one off the top of my head, but they>are all worth having anyway.>>Dave>Dave- A big Amen to that statement above. His books cananswer 98% of all of our questions. Ref: fuel tank- I put my alum. tank behind the firewall and made thecenter section a baggage area with a large aluminum cover hinged w/piano hinge at the front spar and latched at the back in two spots.It's nice not to have to get a ladder to fuel or haul 5 gal. cans upthere. I made a poster board mock up of a tank that suited my needsand had an experienced alum. welder make it up with fill and drain fittings.Mike C. Tony Bingelis has a step by step method forfabricating fiberglass tanks in one of his books. Don't know which one off the top of my head, but theyare all worth having anyway.DaveDave- A big Amen to that statement above. His books cananswer 98% of all of our questions. Ref: fuel tank- I put my alum. tank behind the firewall and made thecenter section a baggage area with a large aluminum cover hinged w/piano hinge at the front spar and latched at the back in two spots.It's nice not to have to get a ladder to fuel or haul 5 gal. cans upthere. I made a poster board mock up of a tank that suited myneedsand had an experienced alum. welder make it up with fill and drainfittings.Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: OFFLINE:RE: fuel tank
Original Posted By: David Swagler
Tony Bingelis has a step by step method forfabricating fiberglass tanks in one of his books. Don't know which one off the top of my head, but theyare all worth having anyway.Dave--- Todd Chisum wrote:> Ken,> > Where can I find out more about constructing> fiberglass fuel tanks? I have > heard of them for years, and now that I am building> a Cuby I have taken a > new interest in them. I want to install two wing> tanks. How is your > Christavia set-up?> > Thanks,> > Todd Chisum> Tulsa, Oklahoma> Wag Aero Super Sport project> >> Get Your Private, Free Email at> http://www.hotmail.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
Tony Bingelis has a step by step method forfabricating fiberglass tanks in one of his books. Don't know which one off the top of my head, but theyare all worth having anyway.Dave--- Todd Chisum wrote:> Ken,> > Where can I find out more about constructing> fiberglass fuel tanks? I have > heard of them for years, and now that I am building> a Cuby I have taken a > new interest in them. I want to install two wing> tanks. How is your > Christavia set-up?> > Thanks,> > Todd Chisum> Tulsa, Oklahoma> Wag Aero Super Sport project> >> Get Your Private, Free Email at> http://www.hotmail.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: RE: fuel tank
Original Posted By:> > > Ken Beanlands [SMTP:kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca]
Who says static conductivity must be metallic??Won't a balloon hang on wallpaper??JimV.--- Ken Beanlands wrote:> Nonsense. > > Fiberglass tanks, and rubber fuel bladders are> employed on numerous> commercial and kitplane alike. While not as good at> disipating static,> the problem is easy to control by electrically> bonding the tank. Most of> the tanks use some sort of metalic filler neck. By> running a few thin> aluminum straps over the tank and electrically> bonding them to the filler> neck and airframe, you can safely ground the plane,> and the tank, at the> pumps. The main thing is to prevent a sparc (Err,> spark, I've been working> on Sun systems too long) between the nozzel and the> filler neck. With a> Piet, the same consideration must be taken, even> with an aluminum tank. > The tank is sitting within an wooden structure and> is generally> electrically isolated from the airframe by> anti-chafing stuff like rubber> strips. This will not allow the tank to discharge to> ground until you give> a it a path, like a steel fuel nozzel. Either way,> you have to> electrically bond the tank to the structure.> Personally, I plan on adding> some thin aluminum tabs to the boot cowl that will> be in contact with the> tank to solve this problem. Little tufts of steel> wool between the tank> and boot cowl will also work. > > Aluminum tanks, on the other hand , have a nasty> tendancy of developing> fatigue cracking that is not a problem with> fiberglass. So far, I seen a> number of planes that have developed leaks in thier> aluminum tanks. The> Citabria I was flying this spring ended up with 2> leaks and the PA-18 was> also leaking before it crashed. A friend of ours> replaced his leaking> aluminum tanks in his 172 with STC'd fiberglass ones> and had never had a> problem. If you have a nose mounted or even center> section tank, the leak> will end up filling your cockpit with fuel. If this> happens in flight..... > > Ken.> > On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Jack Phillips (EUS) wrote:> > > One other consideration when trying to decide> between fiberglass and> > metal (either aluminum or ternplate) - Fiberglass> tanks offer no good> > way to dissipate a static electrical charge. When> refueling, the flow> > of gasoline from a nozzle can build up a> substantial charge (thousands> > of volts) in a hurry. With a metal tank grounded> to the structure and> > through the static clip at the fuel pump to earth> ground, the charge can> > be safely dissipated. With a fiberglass tank, the> tank can retain the> > charge for mi> > > > > -----Original Message-----
Who says static conductivity must be metallic??Won't a balloon hang on wallpaper??JimV.--- Ken Beanlands wrote:> Nonsense. > > Fiberglass tanks, and rubber fuel bladders are> employed on numerous> commercial and kitplane alike. While not as good at> disipating static,> the problem is easy to control by electrically> bonding the tank. Most of> the tanks use some sort of metalic filler neck. By> running a few thin> aluminum straps over the tank and electrically> bonding them to the filler> neck and airframe, you can safely ground the plane,> and the tank, at the> pumps. The main thing is to prevent a sparc (Err,> spark, I've been working> on Sun systems too long) between the nozzel and the> filler neck. With a> Piet, the same consideration must be taken, even> with an aluminum tank. > The tank is sitting within an wooden structure and> is generally> electrically isolated from the airframe by> anti-chafing stuff like rubber> strips. This will not allow the tank to discharge to> ground until you give> a it a path, like a steel fuel nozzel. Either way,> you have to> electrically bond the tank to the structure.> Personally, I plan on adding> some thin aluminum tabs to the boot cowl that will> be in contact with the> tank to solve this problem. Little tufts of steel> wool between the tank> and boot cowl will also work. > > Aluminum tanks, on the other hand , have a nasty> tendancy of developing> fatigue cracking that is not a problem with> fiberglass. So far, I seen a> number of planes that have developed leaks in thier> aluminum tanks. The> Citabria I was flying this spring ended up with 2> leaks and the PA-18 was> also leaking before it crashed. A friend of ours> replaced his leaking> aluminum tanks in his 172 with STC'd fiberglass ones> and had never had a> problem. If you have a nose mounted or even center> section tank, the leak> will end up filling your cockpit with fuel. If this> happens in flight..... > > Ken.> > On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Jack Phillips (EUS) wrote:> > > One other consideration when trying to decide> between fiberglass and> > metal (either aluminum or ternplate) - Fiberglass> tanks offer no good> > way to dissipate a static electrical charge. When> refueling, the flow> > of gasoline from a nozzle can build up a> substantial charge (thousands> > of volts) in a hurry. With a metal tank grounded> to the structure and> > through the static clip at the fuel pump to earth> ground, the charge can> > be safely dissipated. With a fiberglass tank, the> tank can retain the> > charge for mi> > > > > -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
How many gallons are you looking to have in yourcenter section fiberglass tanks?> I also have the tank in the> center wing. No weight shift> for me. Since there is no trim system I would stick> with a center tank.> Actually I'd put in a trim system.> Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.Com> Tim Cunningham> Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510> --> > >On the subject of fuel tanks....Has anyone weighed> their completed wing> tank?> > I am interested in knowing the weight difference> between an aluminum tank> >and a fiberglass one. I am not there yet, but have> been thinking that I> >would like to try and end up with an aluminum one. > It would be easier for> me> >to get set up to build it using glass...but I am> guessing I'd probably wind> >up with a heavier part. I am putting a lot of> effort into keeping> everything> >as light as possible within reason. I will do what> it takes to get> aluminum> >if it means I'd save significant weight.> > Terry B> > ________________________________________________________________________________
How many gallons are you looking to have in yourcenter section fiberglass tanks?> I also have the tank in the> center wing. No weight shift> for me. Since there is no trim system I would stick> with a center tank.> Actually I'd put in a trim system.> Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.Com> Tim Cunningham> Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510> --> > >On the subject of fuel tanks....Has anyone weighed> their completed wing> tank?> > I am interested in knowing the weight difference> between an aluminum tank> >and a fiberglass one. I am not there yet, but have> been thinking that I> >would like to try and end up with an aluminum one. > It would be easier for> me> >to get set up to build it using glass...but I am> guessing I'd probably wind> >up with a heavier part. I am putting a lot of> effort into keeping> everything> >as light as possible within reason. I will do what> it takes to get> aluminum> >if it means I'd save significant weight.> > Terry B> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: RE: fuel tank
Original Posted By:> > > > Ken Beanlands [SMTP:kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca]
Umm.. That's actually showing how static electricoty is NOT beingcunducted. Take the balloon off the wall and try the same experiment witha metalic door knob, the baloon will not stick. In fact, you may actuallysee a spark as it discharges. Why? Simple. The balloon has a negative (orpossitive) charge until it comes in contact with the wall. THe charge(actually, spare electrons) is then cunducted through the metal knobgiving both mediums the same charge. No charge, no ttraction, balloondoesn't stick to the knob. With the walpaper wall, there is noconductivity. Hence, the opposite charges in the two mediums are attractedto each other and never discharge to ground. The discharge to is the realproblem. When the charged balloon touches the metal knob, the electronsflow across. If the charge is severe enough, the electrons will bridge thegap before they actually touch causing a spark.Now, consider that the fiberglass tank is the balloon. Filling it withfeul is akin to rubbing the balloon on your hair. The tank is in contactwith the rubber and wood of the fuselage and is statically attracted, butnot grounded. Now, a grounded fuel line touches the filler neck, like theballoon touching the knob. Discharge, spark, BANG! KenOn Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Jim VanDervort wrote:> Who says static conductivity must be metallic??> Won't a balloon hang on wallpaper??> > JimV.> > > > --- Ken Beanlands wrote:> > Nonsense. > > > > Fiberglass tanks, and rubber fuel bladders are> > employed on numerous> > commercial and kitplane alike. While not as good at> > disipating static,> > the problem is easy to control by electrically> > bonding the tank. Most of> > the tanks use some sort of metalic filler neck. By> > running a few thin> > aluminum straps over the tank and electrically> > bonding them to the filler> > neck and airframe, you can safely ground the plane,> > and the tank, at the> > pumps. The main thing is to prevent a sparc (Err,> > spark, I've been working> > on Sun systems too long) between the nozzel and the> > filler neck. With a> > Piet, the same consideration must be taken, even> > with an aluminum tank. > > The tank is sitting within an wooden structure and> > is generally> > electrically isolated from the airframe by> > anti-chafing stuff like rubber> > strips. This will not allow the tank to discharge to> > ground until you give> > a it a path, like a steel fuel nozzel. Either way,> > you have to> > electrically bond the tank to the structure.> > Personally, I plan on adding> > some thin aluminum tabs to the boot cowl that will> > be in contact with the> > tank to solve this problem. Little tufts of steel> > wool between the tank> > and boot cowl will also work. > > > > Aluminum tanks, on the other hand , have a nasty> > tendancy of developing> > fatigue cracking that is not a problem with> > fiberglass. So far, I seen a> > number of planes that have developed leaks in thier> > aluminum tanks. The> > Citabria I was flying this spring ended up with 2> > leaks and the PA-18 was> > also leaking before it crashed. A friend of ours> > replaced his leaking> > aluminum tanks in his 172 with STC'd fiberglass ones> > and had never had a> > problem. If you have a nose mounted or even center> > section tank, the leak> > will end up filling your cockpit with fuel. If this> > happens in flight..... > > > > Ken.> > > > On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Jack Phillips (EUS) wrote:> > > > > One other consideration when trying to decide> > between fiberglass and> > > metal (either aluminum or ternplate) - Fiberglass> > tanks offer no good> > > way to dissipate a static electrical charge. When> > refueling, the flow> > > of gasoline from a nozzle can build up a> > substantial charge (thousands> > > of volts) in a hurry. With a metal tank grounded> > to the structure and> > > through the static clip at the fuel pump to earth> > ground, the charge can> > > be safely dissipated. With a fiberglass tank, the> > tank can retain the> > > charge for mi> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
Umm.. That's actually showing how static electricoty is NOT beingcunducted. Take the balloon off the wall and try the same experiment witha metalic door knob, the baloon will not stick. In fact, you may actuallysee a spark as it discharges. Why? Simple. The balloon has a negative (orpossitive) charge until it comes in contact with the wall. THe charge(actually, spare electrons) is then cunducted through the metal knobgiving both mediums the same charge. No charge, no ttraction, balloondoesn't stick to the knob. With the walpaper wall, there is noconductivity. Hence, the opposite charges in the two mediums are attractedto each other and never discharge to ground. The discharge to is the realproblem. When the charged balloon touches the metal knob, the electronsflow across. If the charge is severe enough, the electrons will bridge thegap before they actually touch causing a spark.Now, consider that the fiberglass tank is the balloon. Filling it withfeul is akin to rubbing the balloon on your hair. The tank is in contactwith the rubber and wood of the fuselage and is statically attracted, butnot grounded. Now, a grounded fuel line touches the filler neck, like theballoon touching the knob. Discharge, spark, BANG! KenOn Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Jim VanDervort wrote:> Who says static conductivity must be metallic??> Won't a balloon hang on wallpaper??> > JimV.> > > > --- Ken Beanlands wrote:> > Nonsense. > > > > Fiberglass tanks, and rubber fuel bladders are> > employed on numerous> > commercial and kitplane alike. While not as good at> > disipating static,> > the problem is easy to control by electrically> > bonding the tank. Most of> > the tanks use some sort of metalic filler neck. By> > running a few thin> > aluminum straps over the tank and electrically> > bonding them to the filler> > neck and airframe, you can safely ground the plane,> > and the tank, at the> > pumps. The main thing is to prevent a sparc (Err,> > spark, I've been working> > on Sun systems too long) between the nozzel and the> > filler neck. With a> > Piet, the same consideration must be taken, even> > with an aluminum tank. > > The tank is sitting within an wooden structure and> > is generally> > electrically isolated from the airframe by> > anti-chafing stuff like rubber> > strips. This will not allow the tank to discharge to> > ground until you give> > a it a path, like a steel fuel nozzel. Either way,> > you have to> > electrically bond the tank to the structure.> > Personally, I plan on adding> > some thin aluminum tabs to the boot cowl that will> > be in contact with the> > tank to solve this problem. Little tufts of steel> > wool between the tank> > and boot cowl will also work. > > > > Aluminum tanks, on the other hand , have a nasty> > tendancy of developing> > fatigue cracking that is not a problem with> > fiberglass. So far, I seen a> > number of planes that have developed leaks in thier> > aluminum tanks. The> > Citabria I was flying this spring ended up with 2> > leaks and the PA-18 was> > also leaking before it crashed. A friend of ours> > replaced his leaking> > aluminum tanks in his 172 with STC'd fiberglass ones> > and had never had a> > problem. If you have a nose mounted or even center> > section tank, the leak> > will end up filling your cockpit with fuel. If this> > happens in flight..... > > > > Ken.> > > > On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Jack Phillips (EUS) wrote:> > > > > One other consideration when trying to decide> > between fiberglass and> > > metal (either aluminum or ternplate) - Fiberglass> > tanks offer no good> > > way to dissipate a static electrical charge. When> > refueling, the flow> > > of gasoline from a nozzle can build up a> > substantial charge (thousands> > > of volts) in a hurry. With a metal tank grounded> > to the structure and> > > through the static clip at the fuel pump to earth> > ground, the charge can> > > be safely dissipated. With a fiberglass tank, the> > tank can retain the> > > charge for mi> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: RE: fuel tank
Original Posted By:> Ken Beanlands [SMTP:kbeanlan(at)spots.ab.ca]
Yep, that's the scenario.I know a lot of airplanes are flying with fiberglass fuel tanks, I just wantedpeople to realize there are other things to consider when deciding what materialto use when building a fuel tank. Most people don't automatically think aboutstatic discharge when thinking about fueling. Fiberglass is OK if properlygrounded, but that is something that must be accomodated during construction.> -----Original Message-----
Yep, that's the scenario.I know a lot of airplanes are flying with fiberglass fuel tanks, I just wantedpeople to realize there are other things to consider when deciding what materialto use when building a fuel tank. Most people don't automatically think aboutstatic discharge when thinking about fueling. Fiberglass is OK if properlygrounded, but that is something that must be accomodated during construction.> -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: COZYPILOT(at)aol.com
attach a triangular piece of steel to the fuel cap with braided wire, make sure the length is long enough to sit on the bottom of the tank as you refuel, attach grounding wire to fuel cap instead of airframe. Plastic airplanes have used this method for years with no problems.________________________________________________________________________________
attach a triangular piece of steel to the fuel cap with braided wire, make sure the length is long enough to sit on the bottom of the tank as you refuel, attach grounding wire to fuel cap instead of airframe. Plastic airplanes have used this method for years with no problems.________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: fuel tank
Original Posted By: Gary Leopold
Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuel tankLeon:Norwalk, Iowa.Keep me posted. Thanks________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuel tankLeon:Norwalk, Iowa.Keep me posted. Thanks________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Fw: fuel tank
Original Posted By: Gary Leopold
-----Original Message-----
-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: nle97(at)juno.com
We're going to use one in ours. I plan to make it out of aluminum andweld it myself. We should be into this this coming winter as the wing isnearly complete. I've done some aluminum welding before and feel I can doit if I practice a little on scraps left over. I'm sure we'll use 5052aluminum, possibly 3003, as each of these weldable. We plan to do somefiguring to get a ten gallon tank also. I've read where many people haveeleven or twelve gallons which might be nice for range, but two hours islong enough in a Piet (unless you can't find an acceptable place toland!)John Langston writes:>What does everyone think about the center section wing tank?__________________________________________________________________________________________
We're going to use one in ours. I plan to make it out of aluminum andweld it myself. We should be into this this coming winter as the wing isnearly complete. I've done some aluminum welding before and feel I can doit if I practice a little on scraps left over. I'm sure we'll use 5052aluminum, possibly 3003, as each of these weldable. We plan to do somefiguring to get a ten gallon tank also. I've read where many people haveeleven or twelve gallons which might be nice for range, but two hours islong enough in a Piet (unless you can't find an acceptable place toland!)John Langston writes:>What does everyone think about the center section wing tank?__________________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By:>> walter evans [SMTP:wbeevans(at)worldnet.att.net]
You Need to be carefull with sloshing compound. It does work very wellthough. Be sure the tank is absolutely clean before sloshing andcontinually check the sloshing compund for flaking while in service. There was an AD note on Piper Cherokee's several years ago in which allCherokee tanks that had been sloshed had to be inspected for peeling orflaking. I found a couple that were flaking and found sloshing materialin the gascolator. Although I don't know anyone who had an enginefailure due to this, I've heard of several.John Langston writes:>Walter,>>Even with ternplate you might want to use a sloshing compound to seal >the>tank. I've got a 52 year old Cessna 140 (yeah, it's a Spam-can, but >at>least it doesn't have one of those training wheels up front) with the>original ternplate fuel tanks. I'm beginning to get considerable >rust>flaking every time I drain the gascolator. of course, you could look >at it>like 50+ years is a pretty good endorsement. Ternplate is pretty >heavy,>when compared with aluminum. I'm planning to make my tank out of >5052>aluminum which I will pop-rivet together, then take to a professional >welder>to weld it up. That way I know it will fit in the centersection, and >I can>put in all the baffling I need.>>>> -----Original Message-----
You Need to be carefull with sloshing compound. It does work very wellthough. Be sure the tank is absolutely clean before sloshing andcontinually check the sloshing compund for flaking while in service. There was an AD note on Piper Cherokee's several years ago in which allCherokee tanks that had been sloshed had to be inspected for peeling orflaking. I found a couple that were flaking and found sloshing materialin the gascolator. Although I don't know anyone who had an enginefailure due to this, I've heard of several.John Langston writes:>Walter,>>Even with ternplate you might want to use a sloshing compound to seal >the>tank. I've got a 52 year old Cessna 140 (yeah, it's a Spam-can, but >at>least it doesn't have one of those training wheels up front) with the>original ternplate fuel tanks. I'm beginning to get considerable >rust>flaking every time I drain the gascolator. of course, you could look >at it>like 50+ years is a pretty good endorsement. Ternplate is pretty >heavy,>when compared with aluminum. I'm planning to make my tank out of >5052>aluminum which I will pop-rivet together, then take to a professional >welder>to weld it up. That way I know it will fit in the centersection, and >I can>put in all the baffling I need.>>>> -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
In a message dated 10/3/99 10:06:51 AM Central Daylight Time, rrobert(at)centuryinter.net writes:>RussellNitrate dope is the more flammable product in its cured state. For years the finishing processes were developed around the requirements for cotton. Nitrate acts to tauten cotton fabric which (unlike the dacron we use now) is tautened by heat. The butyrate dope finishing system was developed to be used in combination with nitrate dope as a replacement for an all nitrate dope finish. This significantly reduced the finished product down to a flame retardent (fire resistant) level. This included some first stage doping with nitrate for tautening and then butyrate was used with aluminum powder (silver) and also with color pigment for filling and finishing. Processes like Cooper and Randolph still include variations of this. Many including my dad still swear by these tried and true finishing systems. Many others use the Stits process. From a fire resistant standpoint, I am guessing that ol' Ray Stits did his homework. But I don't have my Stits book handy to read up on this aspect, as I loaned it out recently. Interesting question though. My guess is that the more recent systems probably have improved materials that are better than the older ones.Terry B ________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 10/3/99 10:06:51 AM Central Daylight Time, rrobert(at)centuryinter.net writes:>RussellNitrate dope is the more flammable product in its cured state. For years the finishing processes were developed around the requirements for cotton. Nitrate acts to tauten cotton fabric which (unlike the dacron we use now) is tautened by heat. The butyrate dope finishing system was developed to be used in combination with nitrate dope as a replacement for an all nitrate dope finish. This significantly reduced the finished product down to a flame retardent (fire resistant) level. This included some first stage doping with nitrate for tautening and then butyrate was used with aluminum powder (silver) and also with color pigment for filling and finishing. Processes like Cooper and Randolph still include variations of this. Many including my dad still swear by these tried and true finishing systems. Many others use the Stits process. From a fire resistant standpoint, I am guessing that ol' Ray Stits did his homework. But I don't have my Stits book handy to read up on this aspect, as I loaned it out recently. Interesting question though. My guess is that the more recent systems probably have improved materials that are better than the older ones.Terry B ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: del magsam
In a message dated 10/3/99 10:06:51 AM Central Daylight Time, rrobert(at)centuryinter.net writes:>Russell....Here's the 1st of my 2 cents...I think aluminum would bend a long way before cracking in comparison to fiberglass which I think would splinter and break up if deformed outside its elastic region. Terry B________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 10/3/99 10:06:51 AM Central Daylight Time, rrobert(at)centuryinter.net writes:>Russell....Here's the 1st of my 2 cents...I think aluminum would bend a long way before cracking in comparison to fiberglass which I think would splinter and break up if deformed outside its elastic region. Terry B________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
In a message dated 10/3/99 10:06:51 AM Central Daylight Time, rrobert(at)centuryinter.net writes:>These are rather morbid thoughts....but all in the interest of safety....Certainly we all plan to be safe builders and pilots so we never have to find out. Anyway...for the 2nd of my 2 cents...The fuselage tank is certainly surrounded by more structure than the wing tank. One of the other items to think about is the fuel line. Say the crash significantly altered the location of the wing, relative to the Fuselage....the fuel line can only stretch so far until it breaks. Just some thoughts.Terry B________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 10/3/99 10:06:51 AM Central Daylight Time, rrobert(at)centuryinter.net writes:>These are rather morbid thoughts....but all in the interest of safety....Certainly we all plan to be safe builders and pilots so we never have to find out. Anyway...for the 2nd of my 2 cents...The fuselage tank is certainly surrounded by more structure than the wing tank. One of the other items to think about is the fuel line. Say the crash significantly altered the location of the wing, relative to the Fuselage....the fuel line can only stretch so far until it breaks. Just some thoughts.Terry B________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: Earl Myers
In a message dated 10/3/99 10:30:00 AM Central Daylight Time, BARNSTMR(at)aol.com writes:>OOPS....That came out wrong....I meant to get across that cotton fabric is tautened by nitrate and dacron fabric is tautened by heat. ..Oh well...you all knew what I meant, right?Terry B________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 10/3/99 10:30:00 AM Central Daylight Time, BARNSTMR(at)aol.com writes:>OOPS....That came out wrong....I meant to get across that cotton fabric is tautened by nitrate and dacron fabric is tautened by heat. ..Oh well...you all knew what I meant, right?Terry B________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By: Earl Myers
I was just going back thru some old kitplane mags andreread the article about a new technology. Putting aspecial foam or foam pieces in the fuel tank that keptthe fuel from vaporizing in the tank, keeping it fromexploding in a crash. Has anybody used that? or couldcomment on it. I sent for some info on it. I havelearned much from this discussion on tanks. hasanybody used or had much experiance with a fuelbladder?--- kyle ray wrote:> I wonder which location is the safest center> section or fuselage?> If a person crashed landed which location would be> more prone> to rupture and feed a fire. Which tank would be less> likely to rupture> in a crash aluminum or fiberglass?> What paint and covering systems least support> combustion.> Are there any other considerations to fire proof a> homebuilt plane?> > russell> > =====________________________________________________________________________________
I was just going back thru some old kitplane mags andreread the article about a new technology. Putting aspecial foam or foam pieces in the fuel tank that keptthe fuel from vaporizing in the tank, keeping it fromexploding in a crash. Has anybody used that? or couldcomment on it. I sent for some info on it. I havelearned much from this discussion on tanks. hasanybody used or had much experiance with a fuelbladder?--- kyle ray wrote:> I wonder which location is the safest center> section or fuselage?> If a person crashed landed which location would be> more prone> to rupture and feed a fire. Which tank would be less> likely to rupture> in a crash aluminum or fiberglass?> What paint and covering systems least support> combustion.> Are there any other considerations to fire proof a> homebuilt plane?> > russell> > =====________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE (Again, and again, and again)
Original Posted By: del magsam
Hello please take my name off your piet discussion...my email is wacotpilot(at)aol.com...thanks DWG________________________________________________________________________________
Hello please take my name off your piet discussion...my email is wacotpilot(at)aol.com...thanks DWG________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank
Original Posted By:
John,You might want to reconsider that 10 gallon tank if you think you might wantto fly for 2 hours. I had 16 gallons this summer and didn't fly for over2:20 on any leg. You have to figure on having some gas left in the tankwhen you land. Depending on how little you can live with (pun intended) addthat to the amount that is unusable and you have a lot less actually usablethan you might think when you are starting with only 10 gallons.Ted B.----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________
John,You might want to reconsider that 10 gallon tank if you think you might wantto fly for 2 hours. I had 16 gallons this summer and didn't fly for over2:20 on any leg. You have to figure on having some gas left in the tankwhen you land. Depending on how little you can live with (pun intended) addthat to the amount that is unusable and you have a lot less actually usablethan you might think when you are starting with only 10 gallons.Ted B.----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: fuel tank
Original Posted By: "David B. Schober"
Larry:I would like to hear about your experience building a fuel tank. I havenever built one but I can do sheetmetal work. I am also interested insuccessful tank shapes for the piet.Gary Frgtdog(at)worldnet.att.net________________________________________________________________________________
Larry:I would like to hear about your experience building a fuel tank. I havenever built one but I can do sheetmetal work. I am also interested insuccessful tank shapes for the piet.Gary Frgtdog(at)worldnet.att.net________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: fuel tank
Original Posted By: "Steve Glass"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuel tankhi gang. I am building the 3 foot center section on my pietenpol and I am making it a wet one. I have glassed in on bottom and sides with two baffles. Iwould like to use .025 aluminum for the top and would like to know what the best way to join the aluminum to the end ribs and spars. I used epoxy resin oninside of tank and plan a drain at the front and rear of tank. Also I will havea sample drain at the rear on either side. Thanks, Gardiner Mason in St. Simons Island Ga. .________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuel tankhi gang. I am building the 3 foot center section on my pietenpol and I am making it a wet one. I have glassed in on bottom and sides with two baffles. Iwould like to use .025 aluminum for the top and would like to know what the best way to join the aluminum to the end ribs and spars. I used epoxy resin oninside of tank and plan a drain at the front and rear of tank. Also I will havea sample drain at the rear on either side. Thanks, Gardiner Mason in St. Simons Island Ga. .________________________________________________________________________________