Original Posted By: Gary Meadows
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plans lack details>Hello,>>The plans that my friend is using (purchased from Don Pietenpol) for the>Pietenpol Aircamper really lack details. Just about every description is>either confusing or has details missing. Is there another set of plans>available that are more detailed?>>Thanks, Glenn>>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Plans lack details
> Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By:>> > Burroughs
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details>Still does not matter.>>After 70 years you would think the plans would be first rate, You need to>get additional info to built it. I agree this group is the best place for>info.>>But nothing you can say makes it right for Don Pietenpol to sell plans that>still have mistakes after all these years.>>How many pages in the plans,>What size and how many pages x copy cost = ?? from 75.00 = profit for>Don Pietenpol.>>Guess What, I would feel better giving Barnard the money.>>IMHO>>Gordon>>----- Original Message ----->From: Ken Beanlands >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 3:09 PM>Subject: Re: Plans lack details>>>> Sonex, the new, all metal, light plane charges $500 USD for a set of>> plans. The Average rate for a set of plans, most not more detailed than>> the Piet, is around the $150-$200 USD range. Paying only $75 for a set of>> plans should be considered a bargain. I doubt if they are making much if>> any money at that price.>>>> Ken>>>> On Wed, 29 Sep 1999, Gordon Brimhall wrote:>>>> > You would think after 70 years the family would at least fix the errors>in>> > the plans. This has come up before on this list. 1932 Flying andGliding>> > manual has the same information and I think it tells of plans changes.>But>> > for 75.00 you should get a complete set without errors.>> >>> > IMHO>> >>> > Gordon>> > IHA#02>> > http://public.surfree.com/arkiesair/index.htm>> > WebMaster for IHA>> >>> >>> > ----- Original Message -----
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details>Still does not matter.>>After 70 years you would think the plans would be first rate, You need to>get additional info to built it. I agree this group is the best place for>info.>>But nothing you can say makes it right for Don Pietenpol to sell plans that>still have mistakes after all these years.>>How many pages in the plans,>What size and how many pages x copy cost = ?? from 75.00 = profit for>Don Pietenpol.>>Guess What, I would feel better giving Barnard the money.>>IMHO>>Gordon>>----- Original Message ----->From: Ken Beanlands >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 3:09 PM>Subject: Re: Plans lack details>>>> Sonex, the new, all metal, light plane charges $500 USD for a set of>> plans. The Average rate for a set of plans, most not more detailed than>> the Piet, is around the $150-$200 USD range. Paying only $75 for a set of>> plans should be considered a bargain. I doubt if they are making much if>> any money at that price.>>>> Ken>>>> On Wed, 29 Sep 1999, Gordon Brimhall wrote:>>>> > You would think after 70 years the family would at least fix the errors>in>> > the plans. This has come up before on this list. 1932 Flying andGliding>> > manual has the same information and I think it tells of plans changes.>But>> > for 75.00 you should get a complete set without errors.>> >>> > IMHO>> >>> > Gordon>> > IHA#02>> > http://public.surfree.com/arkiesair/index.htm>> > WebMaster for IHA>> >>> >>> > ----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plans lack details>I have been in contact with Paul Poberezny the past few weeks, concerningthe>"new" Sport Aviation Association, and the (questionable) direction the EAA>has taken the past ten years or so. He really is a fine individual to speak>with.>>Moments ago I finished a letter to him where I remarked about the people I>have met through Replicraft Aviation and the EAA , and that there wasn'tONE>I haven't liked or befriended...Then I read Mr. Brimhalls rather harsh>comments about the Pietenpol plans and more directly, the Pietenpol family.I>may need to amend my letter to Paul.>>Half the fun of building a Piet IS that you need to do more than just read>the plans and knock out parts. There is something really magical about>building an aircraft from plans that are older than you are...half the fun,>is in finding those lost dimensions, and the builders you meet along theway.>If the plans were so complete and detailed, we wouldn't need ...each other>and this group.>>Personally, I rather like it here.>>Steve>Replicraft Aviation>>________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plans lack details>I have been in contact with Paul Poberezny the past few weeks, concerningthe>"new" Sport Aviation Association, and the (questionable) direction the EAA>has taken the past ten years or so. He really is a fine individual to speak>with.>>Moments ago I finished a letter to him where I remarked about the people I>have met through Replicraft Aviation and the EAA , and that there wasn'tONE>I haven't liked or befriended...Then I read Mr. Brimhalls rather harsh>comments about the Pietenpol plans and more directly, the Pietenpol family.I>may need to amend my letter to Paul.>>Half the fun of building a Piet IS that you need to do more than just read>the plans and knock out parts. There is something really magical about>building an aircraft from plans that are older than you are...half the fun,>is in finding those lost dimensions, and the builders you meet along theway.>If the plans were so complete and detailed, we wouldn't need ...each other>and this group.>>Personally, I rather like it here.>>Steve>Replicraft Aviation>>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: DonanClara(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plans lack details>Hello,>>The plans that my friend is using (purchased from Don Pietenpol) for the>Pietenpol Aircamper really lack details. Just about every description is>either confusing or has details missing. Is there another set of plans>available that are more detailed?>>Thanks, Glenn>>________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plans lack details>Hello,>>The plans that my friend is using (purchased from Don Pietenpol) for the>Pietenpol Aircamper really lack details. Just about every description is>either confusing or has details missing. Is there another set of plans>available that are more detailed?>>Thanks, Glenn>>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: "Jack Phillips (EUS)"
Hello,The plans that my friend is using (purchased from Don Pietenpol) for thePietenpol Aircamper really lack details. Just about every description iseither confusing or has details missing. Is there another set of plansavailable that are more detailed?Thanks, Glenn________________________________________________________________________________
Hello,The plans that my friend is using (purchased from Don Pietenpol) for thePietenpol Aircamper really lack details. Just about every description iseither confusing or has details missing. Is there another set of plansavailable that are more detailed?Thanks, Glenn________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: RE: Plans lack details
Original Posted By:> Burroughs [SMTP:glenn(at)sysweb.com]
Nope, you've just got to think everything through very carefully before youcut wood. It helps to talk with other builders, or look at otherPietenpols. I just finished my wing and there are a number of places whereit simply can't be done like the plans show. For example, the compressionstruts cannot be fitted as they are shown on the plans.It helps to have the 1932 Flying and Glider Manual (reprinted by EAA)because it has the original 1929 plans and there are differences betweenthem and the "improved (1934) plans offered by Don Pietenpol. Between thetwo of them you can usually figure out what needs to be done. The Flyingand Glider Manual also has Pietenpol's own commentary on building the plane. Jack> -----Original Message-----
Nope, you've just got to think everything through very carefully before youcut wood. It helps to talk with other builders, or look at otherPietenpols. I just finished my wing and there are a number of places whereit simply can't be done like the plans show. For example, the compressionstruts cannot be fitted as they are shown on the plans.It helps to have the 1932 Flying and Glider Manual (reprinted by EAA)because it has the original 1929 plans and there are differences betweenthem and the "improved (1934) plans offered by Don Pietenpol. Between thetwo of them you can usually figure out what needs to be done. The Flyingand Glider Manual also has Pietenpol's own commentary on building the plane. Jack> -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: Burroughs
Glenn,The plans do take study! I would suggest that you get the 1932 Flyingand Glider Manual reprint from EAA and all of the back issues of theBuckeye Pietenpol Assn. news letter that you can. The picture willstart to fill in as you build and study all the sources that you canfind.There really is no such thing as a complete set of plans, for anything!Much has to be inferred from common practice in any field. The furtherback we go in the history of aviation, the more folks relied on theinventiveness of the builders and the extensive literature available inthe periodicals of the time. We still have that sort of literatureavailable from EAA. Tony Bengelis' books are a good example.One of the reasons that the Pietenpol has been so popular is the qualityof Orin Hoopman's drawings. They combine a solid drawing hand, goodlettering and an intent to include as much as possible in just a fewsheets of drawings. They do require study. I do full size sketches andmockups of critical assemblies. I have made a lot of poster boardpatterns, along the way, to be sure things are going to fit and be to myliking.I have seen airplane plans that were little more than a 3-view and awing rib pattern. The Pietenpol plans are magnitudes better than this!Lauren mailsorter-102-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-d/ms.dwm.v7+dul2)Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 14:02:45 -0400________________________________________________________________________________
Glenn,The plans do take study! I would suggest that you get the 1932 Flyingand Glider Manual reprint from EAA and all of the back issues of theBuckeye Pietenpol Assn. news letter that you can. The picture willstart to fill in as you build and study all the sources that you canfind.There really is no such thing as a complete set of plans, for anything!Much has to be inferred from common practice in any field. The furtherback we go in the history of aviation, the more folks relied on theinventiveness of the builders and the extensive literature available inthe periodicals of the time. We still have that sort of literatureavailable from EAA. Tony Bengelis' books are a good example.One of the reasons that the Pietenpol has been so popular is the qualityof Orin Hoopman's drawings. They combine a solid drawing hand, goodlettering and an intent to include as much as possible in just a fewsheets of drawings. They do require study. I do full size sketches andmockups of critical assemblies. I have made a lot of poster boardpatterns, along the way, to be sure things are going to fit and be to myliking.I have seen airplane plans that were little more than a 3-view and awing rib pattern. The Pietenpol plans are magnitudes better than this!Lauren mailsorter-102-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-d/ms.dwm.v7+dul2)Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 14:02:45 -0400________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: Burroughs
Glen,I think that this is the impression that everyone has at first. It issurprising how much information is there. The more you work with them, themore you see.Give some examples of the parts that confuse , or are omitted.walt-----Original Message-----
Glen,I think that this is the impression that everyone has at first. It issurprising how much information is there. The more you work with them, themore you see.Give some examples of the parts that confuse , or are omitted.walt-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: walter evans
The last couple of posts finally pushed me over the edge, and I ordered the 1932 Flying and Glider Manual reprint from EAA. I also ordered the Tony Bengelis book on Sportplane Construction, I think that will be helpful also. Glenn - As for the plans lack of detail, Jack and Lauren summed it up very well. I guess for myself, I figured that once I got to a part that didn't seem to be too well drawn, I'd either ask the group, or figure it out based on what seemed to be needed for that part. From the best that I can tell, don't worry the details yet, just get started building something, and you'll figure out/find out what you need to know along the way!Good Luck!Gary Meadows________________________________________________________________________________
The last couple of posts finally pushed me over the edge, and I ordered the 1932 Flying and Glider Manual reprint from EAA. I also ordered the Tony Bengelis book on Sportplane Construction, I think that will be helpful also. Glenn - As for the plans lack of detail, Jack and Lauren summed it up very well. I guess for myself, I figured that once I got to a part that didn't seem to be too well drawn, I'd either ask the group, or figure it out based on what seemed to be needed for that part. From the best that I can tell, don't worry the details yet, just get started building something, and you'll figure out/find out what you need to know along the way!Good Luck!Gary Meadows________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE (Again, and again, and again)
Original Posted By: walter evans
steve(at)byu.edu wrote:> > Have you tried going to http://www.aircamper.org/MailingList.cfm ? Simply> put in your email address, pull down the tab, click on unsubscribe and hit> go. There your out a here,> > PS. It really works!> No, it does not work, "subscribe" just blinks and I can't get "unsubscribe".Please unsubscribe me, I must go for a while. Thanks.Claude________________________________________________________________________________
steve(at)byu.edu wrote:> > Have you tried going to http://www.aircamper.org/MailingList.cfm ? Simply> put in your email address, pull down the tab, click on unsubscribe and hit> go. There your out a here,> > PS. It really works!> No, it does not work, "subscribe" just blinks and I can't get "unsubscribe".Please unsubscribe me, I must go for a while. Thanks.Claude________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: Burroughs
You would think after 70 years the family would at least fix the errors inthe plans. This has come up before on this list. 1932 Flying and Glidingmanual has the same information and I think it tells of plans changes. Butfor 75.00 you should get a complete set without errors.IMHOGordonIHA#02http://public.surfree.com/arkiesair/index.htmWebMaster for IHA----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________
You would think after 70 years the family would at least fix the errors inthe plans. This has come up before on this list. 1932 Flying and Glidingmanual has the same information and I think it tells of plans changes. Butfor 75.00 you should get a complete set without errors.IMHOGordonIHA#02http://public.surfree.com/arkiesair/index.htmWebMaster for IHA----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By:> Burroughs
Sonex, the new, all metal, light plane charges $500 USD for a set ofplans. The Average rate for a set of plans, most not more detailed thanthe Piet, is around the $150-$200 USD range. Paying only $75 for a set ofplans should be considered a bargain. I doubt if they are making much ifany money at that price. KenOn Wed, 29 Sep 1999, Gordon Brimhall wrote:> You would think after 70 years the family would at least fix the errors in> the plans. This has come up before on this list. 1932 Flying and Gliding> manual has the same information and I think it tells of plans changes. But> for 75.00 you should get a complete set without errors.> > IMHO> > Gordon> IHA#02> http://public.surfree.com/arkiesair/index.htm> WebMaster for IHA> > > ----- Original Message -----
Sonex, the new, all metal, light plane charges $500 USD for a set ofplans. The Average rate for a set of plans, most not more detailed thanthe Piet, is around the $150-$200 USD range. Paying only $75 for a set ofplans should be considered a bargain. I doubt if they are making much ifany money at that price. KenOn Wed, 29 Sep 1999, Gordon Brimhall wrote:> You would think after 70 years the family would at least fix the errors in> the plans. This has come up before on this list. 1932 Flying and Gliding> manual has the same information and I think it tells of plans changes. But> for 75.00 you should get a complete set without errors.> > IMHO> > Gordon> IHA#02> http://public.surfree.com/arkiesair/index.htm> WebMaster for IHA> > > ----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: Burroughs
Glenn, Start small, then work your way to more complex forms. I found thatby "lofting the plans onto 2 3/4x4x8 sheets of ply wood, all the correctangles can be transferred directly, and if the pieces are built on thepattern you get a chance to work out the interferrences beforehand.Generally, I would say that all the information is there, it is theinterpretation that is the problem. In some cases you have to look at two orthree of the blueprints to get how it actually goes together. There are acouple of spots that the group can help out with. I know I was helped manytimes. You need a clear, description of what the issue/concern is and thenthere are lots of folks that can give you a hand. I did find several spotsmainly in the wings that takes some innovation or minor changes to makework. The 1932 Flying and Glider Manual is a sure help. The more I workwith the plans, the more I recognize just how smart Bernie was. If he hadone fallback, it was the lack of clear concise instructions. To be fair, Iwould hate to have someone try to build it following my very detailed logbook.Starting to ramble, but when the plans start to make sense, its time to cutsmall pieces, not before. I keep thinking of the number of times Steve orMike or a dozen others gave me some insite. Be specific and there are lotsof ideas and help available.----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________
Glenn, Start small, then work your way to more complex forms. I found thatby "lofting the plans onto 2 3/4x4x8 sheets of ply wood, all the correctangles can be transferred directly, and if the pieces are built on thepattern you get a chance to work out the interferrences beforehand.Generally, I would say that all the information is there, it is theinterpretation that is the problem. In some cases you have to look at two orthree of the blueprints to get how it actually goes together. There are acouple of spots that the group can help out with. I know I was helped manytimes. You need a clear, description of what the issue/concern is and thenthere are lots of folks that can give you a hand. I did find several spotsmainly in the wings that takes some innovation or minor changes to makework. The 1932 Flying and Glider Manual is a sure help. The more I workwith the plans, the more I recognize just how smart Bernie was. If he hadone fallback, it was the lack of clear concise instructions. To be fair, Iwould hate to have someone try to build it following my very detailed logbook.Starting to ramble, but when the plans start to make sense, its time to cutsmall pieces, not before. I keep thinking of the number of times Steve orMike or a dozen others gave me some insite. Be specific and there are lotsof ideas and help available.----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________
> Re: HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE (Again, and again, and again)
Original Posted By: Copinfo
Well it does work. I just unsubscribed you with this method. I'll eat myhat (u know the nice embroidered kind) if you reply to this message claude.Respectfully,Steve EldredgeIT ServicesBrigham Young University> -----Original Message-----> claude> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 2:40 PM> To: Pietenpol Discussion> Subject: Re: HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE (Again, and again, and again)>>> steve(at)byu.edu wrote:> >> > Have you tried going to> http://www.aircamper.org/MailingList.cfm ? Simply> > put in your email address, pull down the tab, click on> unsubscribe and hit> > go. There your out a here,> >> > PS. It really works!> >>>> No, it does not work, "subscribe" just blinks and I can't get> "unsubscribe".> Please unsubscribe me, I must go for a while. Thanks.> Claude>________________________________________________________________________________
Well it does work. I just unsubscribed you with this method. I'll eat myhat (u know the nice embroidered kind) if you reply to this message claude.Respectfully,Steve EldredgeIT ServicesBrigham Young University> -----Original Message-----> claude> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 2:40 PM> To: Pietenpol Discussion> Subject: Re: HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE (Again, and again, and again)>>> steve(at)byu.edu wrote:> >> > Have you tried going to> http://www.aircamper.org/MailingList.cfm ? Simply> > put in your email address, pull down the tab, click on> unsubscribe and hit> > go. There your out a here,> >> > PS. It really works!> >>>> No, it does not work, "subscribe" just blinks and I can't get> "unsubscribe".> Please unsubscribe me, I must go for a while. Thanks.> Claude>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: jmcnarry(at)techplus.com (John McNarry)
Glenn- I felt a bit like you do when I first got my plans. But as I gotinto my project, I found that almost everything I needed to know was theresomewhere. Whenever I thought there was an error, I just spent more timestudying- and learned that Bernard was one clever individual. When I don'thave time to build, I enjoy spending time just sudying the plans andbuilding the plane "in my head". It's true that common sense is sometimesneeded to fill in the details, but when you actually start cutting andgluing it seems to all fit together. This group is a great source of information. Also the pictures onaircamper.org of other projects is a treasure trove. Remember that manyhundreds of this plane have been built over the last 70 years, so the planscan't be all that bad!Al Swanson>Hello,>>The plans that my friend is using (purchased from Don Pietenpol) for the>Pietenpol Aircamper really lack details. Just about every description is>either confusing or has details missing. Is there another set of plans>available that are more detailed?>>Thanks, Glenn>>________________________________________________________________________________
Glenn- I felt a bit like you do when I first got my plans. But as I gotinto my project, I found that almost everything I needed to know was theresomewhere. Whenever I thought there was an error, I just spent more timestudying- and learned that Bernard was one clever individual. When I don'thave time to build, I enjoy spending time just sudying the plans andbuilding the plane "in my head". It's true that common sense is sometimesneeded to fill in the details, but when you actually start cutting andgluing it seems to all fit together. This group is a great source of information. Also the pictures onaircamper.org of other projects is a treasure trove. Remember that manyhundreds of this plane have been built over the last 70 years, so the planscan't be all that bad!Al Swanson>Hello,>>The plans that my friend is using (purchased from Don Pietenpol) for the>Pietenpol Aircamper really lack details. Just about every description is>either confusing or has details missing. Is there another set of plans>available that are more detailed?>>Thanks, Glenn>>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: del magsam
Glenn, I'll certainly concede that plans offered over the last ten to fifteen years are a great deal more detailed than the Pietenpol, but, hey look at the number of fine Pietenpol airplanes that came from the same plans you're describing. That's the beauty of this group. Just throw your questions out to these guys and they'll help. To answer your question more directly, I'm not aware of any other Pietenpol or Pietenpol type ( GN-1) plans that are more detailed. Don H.________________________________________________________________________________
Glenn, I'll certainly concede that plans offered over the last ten to fifteen years are a great deal more detailed than the Pietenpol, but, hey look at the number of fine Pietenpol airplanes that came from the same plans you're describing. That's the beauty of this group. Just throw your questions out to these guys and they'll help. To answer your question more directly, I'm not aware of any other Pietenpol or Pietenpol type ( GN-1) plans that are more detailed. Don H.________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: Burroughs
As other have said, Study the plans, Read the Flying and Gliding manualreprints from EAA. Think about it, Ask questions. Lots of good aircraft havebeen built from these plans before and if others have done it you can too.Mr Sam, don't get too upset I've watched this service go from excellent toannoying and back again. If we stay on the topic it is a great forum. Yourexperience is an asset.John McNarry-----Original Message-----
As other have said, Study the plans, Read the Flying and Gliding manualreprints from EAA. Think about it, Ask questions. Lots of good aircraft havebeen built from these plans before and if others have done it you can too.Mr Sam, don't get too upset I've watched this service go from excellent toannoying and back again. If we stay on the topic it is a great forum. Yourexperience is an asset.John McNarry-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: Ken Beanlands
Still does not matter.After 70 years you would think the plans would be first rate, You need toget additional info to built it. I agree this group is the best place forinfo.But nothing you can say makes it right for Don Pietenpol to sell plans thatstill have mistakes after all these years.How many pages in the plans,What size and how many pages x copy cost = ?? from 75.00 = profit forDon Pietenpol.Guess What, I would feel better giving Barnard the money.IMHOGordon----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________
Still does not matter.After 70 years you would think the plans would be first rate, You need toget additional info to built it. I agree this group is the best place forinfo.But nothing you can say makes it right for Don Pietenpol to sell plans thatstill have mistakes after all these years.How many pages in the plans,What size and how many pages x copy cost = ?? from 75.00 = profit forDon Pietenpol.Guess What, I would feel better giving Barnard the money.IMHOGordon----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: Gordon Brimhall
I have been in contact with Paul Poberezny the past few weeks, concerning the "new" Sport Aviation Association, and the (questionable) direction the EAA has taken the past ten years or so. He really is a fine individual to speak with.Moments ago I finished a letter to him where I remarked about the people I have met through Replicraft Aviation and the EAA , and that there wasn't ONE I haven't liked or befriended...Then I read Mr. Brimhalls rather harsh comments about the Pietenpol plans and more directly, the Pietenpol family. I may need to amend my letter to Paul.Half the fun of building a Piet IS that you need to do more than just read the plans and knock out parts. There is something really magical about building an aircraft from plans that are older than you are...half the fun, is in finding those lost dimensions, and the builders you meet along the way. If the plans were so complete and detailed, we wouldn't need ...each other and this group.Personally, I rather like it here.SteveReplicraft Aviation________________________________________________________________________________
I have been in contact with Paul Poberezny the past few weeks, concerning the "new" Sport Aviation Association, and the (questionable) direction the EAA has taken the past ten years or so. He really is a fine individual to speak with.Moments ago I finished a letter to him where I remarked about the people I have met through Replicraft Aviation and the EAA , and that there wasn't ONE I haven't liked or befriended...Then I read Mr. Brimhalls rather harsh comments about the Pietenpol plans and more directly, the Pietenpol family. I may need to amend my letter to Paul.Half the fun of building a Piet IS that you need to do more than just read the plans and knock out parts. There is something really magical about building an aircraft from plans that are older than you are...half the fun, is in finding those lost dimensions, and the builders you meet along the way. If the plans were so complete and detailed, we wouldn't need ...each other and this group.Personally, I rather like it here.SteveReplicraft Aviation________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: John McNarry
I think you are right about that for sure, I never complain about a few OffTopic posts even though I could care less about water witching, even thoughI had it done to my property 9 yrs ago. But still some members get tickedoff and want to show that by sending the unsubscribe to the group, Knowingall the while that is not how you unsubscribe, Just want to be heard is allit is.All the good people like Mr. Sam will always come back. Me as I can be apain in the butt sometimes I appriciate everything and all the info theselists provide, I pay back in hard work for other organizations and helpingpeople whenever I can, just like most of you folks do.GordonBack to Web work.----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________
I think you are right about that for sure, I never complain about a few OffTopic posts even though I could care less about water witching, even thoughI had it done to my property 9 yrs ago. But still some members get tickedoff and want to show that by sending the unsubscribe to the group, Knowingall the while that is not how you unsubscribe, Just want to be heard is allit is.All the good people like Mr. Sam will always come back. Me as I can be apain in the butt sometimes I appriciate everything and all the info theselists provide, I pay back in hard work for other organizations and helpingpeople whenever I can, just like most of you folks do.GordonBack to Web work.----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: Gordon Brimhall
To all that feel this way, I still ask " what actual things are not right on the plans?" I've builtfuse, tail assys , ribs, one wing 75%, and have yet to find a major problem,that didn't turn out to be me not seeing some dimension. 1 1/4 wings , andI'm done with wood. As someone said a short time ago.....they wouldn't be building so many ifthe plans were that bad.My first project had a number of differences from print to printlets do this,,,since most have the same prints,,,state the error and thepage #,,and the rest can add our input. no bad blood,,,just help each other.waltPS Still say " the more you look, the more you find"-----Original Message-----
To all that feel this way, I still ask " what actual things are not right on the plans?" I've builtfuse, tail assys , ribs, one wing 75%, and have yet to find a major problem,that didn't turn out to be me not seeing some dimension. 1 1/4 wings , andI'm done with wood. As someone said a short time ago.....they wouldn't be building so many ifthe plans were that bad.My first project had a number of differences from print to printlets do this,,,since most have the same prints,,,state the error and thepage #,,and the rest can add our input. no bad blood,,,just help each other.waltPS Still say " the more you look, the more you find"-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: Replicraft(at)aol.com
well saidwalt-----Original Message-----
well saidwalt-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By:
That was rather a nice SLAM Steve.Please remove my name from your mailing list.I'll throw away the order forms and catalog I have from your company.I belong to SAA also and EAA and IHAI can email Paul also.Just too bad I can't voice my opinion about a set of plans when it is ok totalk about water witching and other such things on this.Not like I don't like Don Pietenpol, I just think the plans could beimproved after 70 yrs, GEE is that a bad thing or is get Gordon Day:-)))Do your flaming off list, So the good folks don't have to read your junk.GordonIHA#02SAA#952EAA#0595215WebMaster IHA----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________
That was rather a nice SLAM Steve.Please remove my name from your mailing list.I'll throw away the order forms and catalog I have from your company.I belong to SAA also and EAA and IHAI can email Paul also.Just too bad I can't voice my opinion about a set of plans when it is ok totalk about water witching and other such things on this.Not like I don't like Don Pietenpol, I just think the plans could beimproved after 70 yrs, GEE is that a bad thing or is get Gordon Day:-)))Do your flaming off list, So the good folks don't have to read your junk.GordonIHA#02SAA#952EAA#0595215WebMaster IHA----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
In a message dated 9/29/99 8:29:26 PM Central Daylight Time, Replicraft(at)aol.com writes:>AMEN STEVE.... And the other half is sharing plane rides, sharing flying stories, and developing friendships with all of those people who also have an appreciation for this unique little machine......Terry B________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 9/29/99 8:29:26 PM Central Daylight Time, Replicraft(at)aol.com writes:>AMEN STEVE.... And the other half is sharing plane rides, sharing flying stories, and developing friendships with all of those people who also have an appreciation for this unique little machine......Terry B________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: Earl Myers
> Just too bad I can't voice my opinion about a set of> plans when it is ok to> talk about water witching and other such things on> this.Grow up.What makes you think Don has the ability to update theplans? Just because his dad was a talented aircraftdesigner doesn't mean Don is. Nothing against Don. I, for one, appreciate the fact that he continues hisfather's legacy by making the plans available to thoseof us with the desire to build a little slice ofaviation history.As far as the water witching posts are concerned, theyhave all been identified by subject. A simple matterto delete them unread.My two cents.Dave________________________________________________________________________________
> Just too bad I can't voice my opinion about a set of> plans when it is ok to> talk about water witching and other such things on> this.Grow up.What makes you think Don has the ability to update theplans? Just because his dad was a talented aircraftdesigner doesn't mean Don is. Nothing against Don. I, for one, appreciate the fact that he continues hisfather's legacy by making the plans available to thoseof us with the desire to build a little slice ofaviation history.As far as the water witching posts are concerned, theyhave all been identified by subject. A simple matterto delete them unread.My two cents.Dave________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: John McNarry
Gents; I have several sets of plans from planes of that era (Muller seaplane,Epps Biplane, &on & on) They ALL have the same type of "boo-boos" that thePiet planes have. The missing details are the "standard" things that are agiven such as fabric covering down to the wood trim pieces used to give thefabric a nicer appearence (over the fittings). In those days it was justassumed you knew "basics" that applied to all planes. Read the othersfella's comments here and punt like the rest of us did. It is all part ofthe experience! It will come together!Earl Myers-----Original Message-----
Gents; I have several sets of plans from planes of that era (Muller seaplane,Epps Biplane, &on & on) They ALL have the same type of "boo-boos" that thePiet planes have. The missing details are the "standard" things that are agiven such as fabric covering down to the wood trim pieces used to give thefabric a nicer appearence (over the fittings). In those days it was justassumed you knew "basics" that applied to all planes. Read the othersfella's comments here and punt like the rest of us did. It is all part ofthe experience! It will come together!Earl Myers-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: David Swagler
I was going to buy a set of plans from Don last year and I sent him aninquery and never did rec an answer. So I went and bought the 1932 Flyingand Gliding Manual that is just as good, just hard to read the fine print.I'm 57 and 245 lbs, I really don't want to grow anymore or it will be hardto ride my Harley on our long distance tours each year.So how old are you as you seem to wantb to talk about age.?Actually I wanted this crap to end but I will answer every message directedat me. Only Polite thing to do.GordonIHA#02----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________
I was going to buy a set of plans from Don last year and I sent him aninquery and never did rec an answer. So I went and bought the 1932 Flyingand Gliding Manual that is just as good, just hard to read the fine print.I'm 57 and 245 lbs, I really don't want to grow anymore or it will be hardto ride my Harley on our long distance tours each year.So how old are you as you seem to wantb to talk about age.?Actually I wanted this crap to end but I will answer every message directedat me. Only Polite thing to do.GordonIHA#02----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________
> Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: ADonJr(at)aol.com
Group, I have had the good luck to see plans for a numberof homebuilt aircraft, and no matter who is the designerthe plans will always leave somthing out or not be asclear as we all would like and I feel this is what mostof the replys have led to not to say that things couldbe better but this gives us the reason to have groupslike this and the area to make the changes we like tomake the aircraft our ownTKS Vern...>From: David Swagler >Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Subject: Re: Plans lack details>Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 21:23:03 -0700 (PDT)>> > Just too bad I can't voice my opinion about a set of> > plans when it is ok to> > talk about water witching and other such things on> > this.>>Grow up.>>What makes you think Don has the ability to update the>plans? Just because his dad was a talented aircraft>designer doesn't mean Don is. Nothing against Don.>I, for one, appreciate the fact that he continues his>father's legacy by making the plans available to those>of us with the desire to build a little slice of>aviation history.>>As far as the water witching posts are concerned, they>have all been identified by subject. A simple matter>to delete them unread.>>My two cents.>>Dave>>________________________________________________________________________________
Group, I have had the good luck to see plans for a numberof homebuilt aircraft, and no matter who is the designerthe plans will always leave somthing out or not be asclear as we all would like and I feel this is what mostof the replys have led to not to say that things couldbe better but this gives us the reason to have groupslike this and the area to make the changes we like tomake the aircraft our ownTKS Vern...>From: David Swagler >Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Subject: Re: Plans lack details>Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 21:23:03 -0700 (PDT)>> > Just too bad I can't voice my opinion about a set of> > plans when it is ok to> > talk about water witching and other such things on> > this.>>Grow up.>>What makes you think Don has the ability to update the>plans? Just because his dad was a talented aircraft>designer doesn't mean Don is. Nothing against Don.>I, for one, appreciate the fact that he continues his>father's legacy by making the plans available to those>of us with the desire to build a little slice of>aviation history.>>As far as the water witching posts are concerned, they>have all been identified by subject. A simple matter>to delete them unread.>>My two cents.>>Dave>>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: Leo Ponton
Hey, Piet Guys, (and Gals),This note has generated a lot of heat, a lot of smoke, but not much light. B.P., in the F&G Manual addresses this issue, himself, saying "The question of where to draw the line at the exposition of directions for the building of a ship like this is difficult to settle.......there are a few who, after having been told how to hold a hammer in the building of a ship, would ask you how many swipes to clout the nails on the head."This group gives us all access to an amazing amount of experience and expertise to help solve any difficulties which might arise. I've been studying the drawings I bought from B.P. in 1970 for many years, and still find some areas which are not crystal clear. In looking at numerous completed Piets, I have found that there are many possible interpretations of the details, and isn't this what makes our planes special? By law, every Cessna 150 has to be virtually identical in most details. Where is the fun in that? (BTW, that was not intended as a slam on C-150's or those who own/fly them).Instead of getting prickly with one another, let's focus on the real issue, which should be deriving the most enjoyment possible from our common interest.Don Cooley________________________________________________________________________________
Hey, Piet Guys, (and Gals),This note has generated a lot of heat, a lot of smoke, but not much light. B.P., in the F&G Manual addresses this issue, himself, saying "The question of where to draw the line at the exposition of directions for the building of a ship like this is difficult to settle.......there are a few who, after having been told how to hold a hammer in the building of a ship, would ask you how many swipes to clout the nails on the head."This group gives us all access to an amazing amount of experience and expertise to help solve any difficulties which might arise. I've been studying the drawings I bought from B.P. in 1970 for many years, and still find some areas which are not crystal clear. In looking at numerous completed Piets, I have found that there are many possible interpretations of the details, and isn't this what makes our planes special? By law, every Cessna 150 has to be virtually identical in most details. Where is the fun in that? (BTW, that was not intended as a slam on C-150's or those who own/fly them).Instead of getting prickly with one another, let's focus on the real issue, which should be deriving the most enjoyment possible from our common interest.Don Cooley________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By:>> Ken Beanlands
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details>When I made copies of the Parrakeet drawings a few months ago, it cost$125.00>at the local copy shop. The Parrakeet plans are only a few pages more thanthe>Piet so I doubt Mr. Pietenpol is making much of a profit!>>Gordon Brimhall wrote:>>> Still does not matter.>>>> After 70 years you would think the plans would be first rate, You need to>> get additional info to built it. I agree this group is the best place for>> info.>>>> But nothing you can say makes it right for Don Pietenpol to sell plansthat>> still have mistakes after all these years.>>>> How many pages in the plans,>> What size and how many pages x copy cost = ?? from 75.00 = profit for>> Don Pietenpol.>>>> Guess What, I would feel better giving Barnard the money.>>>> IMHO>>>> Gordon>>>> ----- Original Message -----
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details>When I made copies of the Parrakeet drawings a few months ago, it cost$125.00>at the local copy shop. The Parrakeet plans are only a few pages more thanthe>Piet so I doubt Mr. Pietenpol is making much of a profit!>>Gordon Brimhall wrote:>>> Still does not matter.>>>> After 70 years you would think the plans would be first rate, You need to>> get additional info to built it. I agree this group is the best place for>> info.>>>> But nothing you can say makes it right for Don Pietenpol to sell plansthat>> still have mistakes after all these years.>>>> How many pages in the plans,>> What size and how many pages x copy cost = ?? from 75.00 = profit for>> Don Pietenpol.>>>> Guess What, I would feel better giving Barnard the money.>>>> IMHO>>>> Gordon>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By:>>> Ken Beanlands
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details>Hi David,>I saw your mention of the Parakeet plans and wanted to drop you a note. Iam>pretty sure you are talking about the Rose Parakeet. I saw my first one a>year or so ago at the EAA fly in in Abilene. Fell in love with it. Myfirst>plane has to carry 2 people (Hatz) but maybe some day will work on a>Parakeet! I have been meaning to write>EAA or try to find out otherwise if plans are available for the Parakeet.>Evidently they are hard to come by since you had to make copies. Can you>fill me in a little further on the subject?>>Thanks>Mike>-----Original Message----->From: David B. Schober >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Date: Thursday, September 30, 1999 8:32 AM>Subject: Re: Plans lack details>>>>When I made copies of the Parrakeet drawings a few months ago, it cost>$125.00>>at the local copy shop. The Parrakeet plans are only a few pages more than>the>>Piet so I doubt Mr. Pietenpol is making much of a profit!>>>>Gordon Brimhall wrote:>>>>> Still does not matter.>>>>>> After 70 years you would think the plans would be first rate, You needto>>> get additional info to built it. I agree this group is the best placefor>>> info.>>>>>> But nothing you can say makes it right for Don Pietenpol to sell plans>that>>> still have mistakes after all these years.>>>>>> How many pages in the plans,>>> What size and how many pages x copy cost = ?? from 75.00 = profitfor>>> Don Pietenpol.>>>>>> Guess What, I would feel better giving Barnard the money.>>>>>> IMHO>>>>>> Gordon>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details>Hi David,>I saw your mention of the Parakeet plans and wanted to drop you a note. Iam>pretty sure you are talking about the Rose Parakeet. I saw my first one a>year or so ago at the EAA fly in in Abilene. Fell in love with it. Myfirst>plane has to carry 2 people (Hatz) but maybe some day will work on a>Parakeet! I have been meaning to write>EAA or try to find out otherwise if plans are available for the Parakeet.>Evidently they are hard to come by since you had to make copies. Can you>fill me in a little further on the subject?>>Thanks>Mike>-----Original Message----->From: David B. Schober >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Date: Thursday, September 30, 1999 8:32 AM>Subject: Re: Plans lack details>>>>When I made copies of the Parrakeet drawings a few months ago, it cost>$125.00>>at the local copy shop. The Parrakeet plans are only a few pages more than>the>>Piet so I doubt Mr. Pietenpol is making much of a profit!>>>>Gordon Brimhall wrote:>>>>> Still does not matter.>>>>>> After 70 years you would think the plans would be first rate, You needto>>> get additional info to built it. I agree this group is the best placefor>>> info.>>>>>> But nothing you can say makes it right for Don Pietenpol to sell plans>that>>> still have mistakes after all these years.>>>>>> How many pages in the plans,>>> What size and how many pages x copy cost = ?? from 75.00 = profitfor>>> Don Pietenpol.>>>>>> Guess What, I would feel better giving Barnard the money.>>>>>> IMHO>>>>>> Gordon>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: RE: Plans lack details
Original Posted By:> Replicraft(at)aol.com [SMTP:Replicraft(at)aol.com]
Amen to that. If you want to build something that requires no thought or creativity,there's a world of kitplanes out there. One of the neat things about Pietenpolsis that no two of them are exactly alike - even the ones built by BHP.I kind of enjoy figuring out how to do things that are incompletely or incorrectlyshown on the plans. > -----Original Message-----
Amen to that. If you want to build something that requires no thought or creativity,there's a world of kitplanes out there. One of the neat things about Pietenpolsis that no two of them are exactly alike - even the ones built by BHP.I kind of enjoy figuring out how to do things that are incompletely or incorrectlyshown on the plans. > -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: mbell1(at)columbiaenergygroup.com
old construction saying "The camel is a horse that was designed by a commitee"so who is going to do this "clarification" of plans" ?????????John D (IHA #10)________________________________________________________________________________
old construction saying "The camel is a horse that was designed by a commitee"so who is going to do this "clarification" of plans" ?????????John D (IHA #10)________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: steve(at)byu.edu
Another thought:Thank God it's 1999 & we have this group, it must have been tuff when you had no one this handy to ask. You got it.......use it. John (#10)________________________________________________________________________________
Another thought:Thank God it's 1999 & we have this group, it must have been tuff when you had no one this handy to ask. You got it.......use it. John (#10)________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By:> Ken Beanlands
When I made copies of the Parrakeet drawings a few months ago, it cost $125.00at the local copy shop. The Parrakeet plans are only a few pages more than thePiet so I doubt Mr. Pietenpol is making much of a profit!Gordon Brimhall wrote:> Still does not matter.>> After 70 years you would think the plans would be first rate, You need to> get additional info to built it. I agree this group is the best place for> info.>> But nothing you can say makes it right for Don Pietenpol to sell plans that> still have mistakes after all these years.>> How many pages in the plans,> What size and how many pages x copy cost = ?? from 75.00 = profit for> Don Pietenpol.>> Guess What, I would feel better giving Barnard the money.>> IMHO>> Gordon>> ----- Original Message -----
When I made copies of the Parrakeet drawings a few months ago, it cost $125.00at the local copy shop. The Parrakeet plans are only a few pages more than thePiet so I doubt Mr. Pietenpol is making much of a profit!Gordon Brimhall wrote:> Still does not matter.>> After 70 years you would think the plans would be first rate, You need to> get additional info to built it. I agree this group is the best place for> info.>> But nothing you can say makes it right for Don Pietenpol to sell plans that> still have mistakes after all these years.>> How many pages in the plans,> What size and how many pages x copy cost = ?? from 75.00 = profit for> Don Pietenpol.>> Guess What, I would feel better giving Barnard the money.>> IMHO>> Gordon>> ----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: David B. Schober
Hi David,I saw your mention of the Parakeet plans and wanted to drop you a note. I ampretty sure you are talking about the Rose Parakeet. I saw my first one ayear or so ago at the EAA fly in in Abilene. Fell in love with it. My firstplane has to carry 2 people (Hatz) but maybe some day will work on aParakeet! I have been meaning to writeEAA or try to find out otherwise if plans are available for the Parakeet.Evidently they are hard to come by since you had to make copies. Can youfill me in a little further on the subject?ThanksMike-----Original Message-----
Hi David,I saw your mention of the Parakeet plans and wanted to drop you a note. I ampretty sure you are talking about the Rose Parakeet. I saw my first one ayear or so ago at the EAA fly in in Abilene. Fell in love with it. My firstplane has to carry 2 people (Hatz) but maybe some day will work on aParakeet! I have been meaning to writeEAA or try to find out otherwise if plans are available for the Parakeet.Evidently they are hard to come by since you had to make copies. Can youfill me in a little further on the subject?ThanksMike-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: Mike Cunningham
Ooops, must have hit the wrong button, meant to send that direct to David.-----Original Message-----
Ooops, must have hit the wrong button, meant to send that direct to David.-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: Gary Meadows
I'm glad you hit the wrong button, I wanted to ask the same question..about the Parakeet. Once again, I've never seen an airplane I didn't want.BTW, is there a full moon all month? I've never hears so much discontent from this tight knit group! If we were all face to face at a fly-in, I'm sure that discussions would stray off Piets to other interests. That's what makes us individuals. Step away from the conversation for a while, regroup your thoughts, then come back into the conversation.We're all getting older, some fatter, hopefully a bit wiser as well. Let's work together to keep this little gem flying for another 70 years.Just remember EXPERIMENTAL means quite a lot of thought has to go into the building, and HOMEBUILT means we ain't all rocket scientists. Buy the plans, make your decisions based on best available info, detailed or not, then make that glorious smelling sawdust. With perseverance, you'll wind up with an item you can bust your buttons with, a rarity of personal achievement in this "cookie mold" society.Water dowsing? It's not flying, but I'm not narrow-minded (I hope) enough to rain on someone else's parade. Details lacking? That's where common sense and the ability to ask questions comes in. Profit? There's GOTTA be money in aviation! I PUT AN AWFUL LOT OF IT THERE.Thoughts of an O.F.Ed Woerle ________________________________________________________________________________
I'm glad you hit the wrong button, I wanted to ask the same question..about the Parakeet. Once again, I've never seen an airplane I didn't want.BTW, is there a full moon all month? I've never hears so much discontent from this tight knit group! If we were all face to face at a fly-in, I'm sure that discussions would stray off Piets to other interests. That's what makes us individuals. Step away from the conversation for a while, regroup your thoughts, then come back into the conversation.We're all getting older, some fatter, hopefully a bit wiser as well. Let's work together to keep this little gem flying for another 70 years.Just remember EXPERIMENTAL means quite a lot of thought has to go into the building, and HOMEBUILT means we ain't all rocket scientists. Buy the plans, make your decisions based on best available info, detailed or not, then make that glorious smelling sawdust. With perseverance, you'll wind up with an item you can bust your buttons with, a rarity of personal achievement in this "cookie mold" society.Water dowsing? It's not flying, but I'm not narrow-minded (I hope) enough to rain on someone else's parade. Details lacking? That's where common sense and the ability to ask questions comes in. Profit? There's GOTTA be money in aviation! I PUT AN AWFUL LOT OF IT THERE.Thoughts of an O.F.Ed Woerle ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans lack details
Original Posted By: Joe Krzes
Ed, You summed it all up perfectly! Thanks for the nice, balanced perspective!Gary MeadowsSpring, TexasIHA #192________________________________________________________________________________
Ed, You summed it all up perfectly! Thanks for the nice, balanced perspective!Gary MeadowsSpring, TexasIHA #192________________________________________________________________________________
> Plans lack details
Original Posted By: walter evans
> Subject: Plans lack details>>> >Hello,> >> >The plans that my friend is using (purchased from Don Pietenpol) for the> >Pietenpol Aircamper really lack details. Just about every description is> >either confusing or has details missing. Is there another set of plans> >available that are more detailed?> >> >Thanks, Glenn> >> >>>________________________________________________________________________________
> Subject: Plans lack details>>> >Hello,> >> >The plans that my friend is using (purchased from Don Pietenpol) for the> >Pietenpol Aircamper really lack details. Just about every description is> >either confusing or has details missing. Is there another set of plans> >available that are more detailed?> >> >Thanks, Glenn> >> >>>________________________________________________________________________________