Original Posted By: rhartwig11(at)juno.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood
Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood
Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood
Original Posted By: lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywoodGluesMost modern woodworking glues make joints that are stronger than thesurrounding wood, but that does not mean that they are acceptable foraircraft structures. We should be very specific when talking about gluesfor aircraft use. There are many different types of glue sold under thebrand names of "Weldwood" or "Titebond". Some are excellent foraircraft--such as Weldwood Resorcinol or Weldwood Plastic Resin and someare not --such as Weldwood Contact Glue. Titebond Original Wood Glue andTitebond II Premium Wood Glue glue are definitely not waterproof. Jointsmade with them will come apart when the glue joint is thoroughly wetted.The urethane glues (like Gorilla Glue) are waterproof and I thought atone time that they might be an easy to use alternative, but I don't thinkI would use them for anything structural. If a urethane glue joint isnot perfect and cured with at least mild clamping or staple/nailingpressure it can come apart with very little effort. Some boat buildershave quit using urethanes--I am trying to find the specific reason. Aslong as there is a question about urethanes I would not consider them forstructural work on aircraft.Plywood I have tested many samples of aircraft and marine plywoods. The testingconsists of immersing them in boiling water for at least two hours andthen trying to delaminate them. I then let them dry and boil them againand soak them for a couple of days. I have not tested a sample that willdelaminate. I have left some samples outside for months (we get a lot ofsummer rain here) and the glue lines still could not be pried apart. Many interior grades of plywood will delaminate the first time they areboiled--one exception is Tec-Ply which is used on floors forunderlayment. I did a boil-soak-dry cycle on it several times and couldnot get it to delaminate. Aircraft plywood is the only ply that I woulduse in an aircraft without first testing a sample.Dick Hartwig________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywoodGluesMost modern woodworking glues make joints that are stronger than thesurrounding wood, but that does not mean that they are acceptable foraircraft structures. We should be very specific when talking about gluesfor aircraft use. There are many different types of glue sold under thebrand names of "Weldwood" or "Titebond". Some are excellent foraircraft--such as Weldwood Resorcinol or Weldwood Plastic Resin and someare not --such as Weldwood Contact Glue. Titebond Original Wood Glue andTitebond II Premium Wood Glue glue are definitely not waterproof. Jointsmade with them will come apart when the glue joint is thoroughly wetted.The urethane glues (like Gorilla Glue) are waterproof and I thought atone time that they might be an easy to use alternative, but I don't thinkI would use them for anything structural. If a urethane glue joint isnot perfect and cured with at least mild clamping or staple/nailingpressure it can come apart with very little effort. Some boat buildershave quit using urethanes--I am trying to find the specific reason. Aslong as there is a question about urethanes I would not consider them forstructural work on aircraft.Plywood I have tested many samples of aircraft and marine plywoods. The testingconsists of immersing them in boiling water for at least two hours andthen trying to delaminate them. I then let them dry and boil them againand soak them for a couple of days. I have not tested a sample that willdelaminate. I have left some samples outside for months (we get a lot ofsummer rain here) and the glue lines still could not be pried apart. Many interior grades of plywood will delaminate the first time they areboiled--one exception is Tec-Ply which is used on floors forunderlayment. I did a boil-soak-dry cycle on it several times and couldnot get it to delaminate. Aircraft plywood is the only ply that I woulduse in an aircraft without first testing a sample.Dick Hartwig________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood
Original Posted By: "DJ Vegh"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywoodGluesMost modern woodworking glues make joints that are stronger than thesurrounding wood, but that does not mean that they are acceptable foraircraft structures. We should be very specific when talking about gluesfor aircraft use. There are many different types of glue sold under thebrand names of "Weldwood" or "Titebond". Some are excellent foraircraft--such as Weldwood Resorcinol or Weldwood Plastic Resin and someare not --such as Weldwood Contact Glue. Titebond Original Wood Glue andTitebond II Premium Wood Glue glue are definitely not waterproof. Jointsmade with them will come apart when the glue joint is thoroughly wetted.The urethane glues (like Gorilla Glue) are waterproof and I thought atone time that they might be an easy to use alternative, but I don't thinkI would use them for anything structural. If a urethane glue joint isnot perfect and cured with at least mild clamping or staple/nailingpressure it can come apart with very little effort. Some boat buildershave quit using urethanes--I am trying to find the specific reason. Aslong as there is a question about urethanes I would not consider them forstructural work on aircraft.PlywoodI have tested many samples of aircraft and marine plywoods. The testingconsists of immersing them in boiling water for at least two hours andthen trying to delaminate them. I then let them dry and boil them againand soak them for a couple of days. I have not tested a sample that willdelaminate. I have left some samples outside for months (we get a lot ofsummer rain here) and the glue lines still could not be pried apart.Many interior grades of plywood will delaminate the first time they areboiled--one exception is Tec-Ply which is used on floors forunderlayment. I did a boil-soak-dry cycle on it several times and couldnot get it to delaminate. Aircraft plywood is the only ply that I woulduse in an aircraft without first testing a sample.Dick Hartwig________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywoodGluesMost modern woodworking glues make joints that are stronger than thesurrounding wood, but that does not mean that they are acceptable foraircraft structures. We should be very specific when talking about gluesfor aircraft use. There are many different types of glue sold under thebrand names of "Weldwood" or "Titebond". Some are excellent foraircraft--such as Weldwood Resorcinol or Weldwood Plastic Resin and someare not --such as Weldwood Contact Glue. Titebond Original Wood Glue andTitebond II Premium Wood Glue glue are definitely not waterproof. Jointsmade with them will come apart when the glue joint is thoroughly wetted.The urethane glues (like Gorilla Glue) are waterproof and I thought atone time that they might be an easy to use alternative, but I don't thinkI would use them for anything structural. If a urethane glue joint isnot perfect and cured with at least mild clamping or staple/nailingpressure it can come apart with very little effort. Some boat buildershave quit using urethanes--I am trying to find the specific reason. Aslong as there is a question about urethanes I would not consider them forstructural work on aircraft.PlywoodI have tested many samples of aircraft and marine plywoods. The testingconsists of immersing them in boiling water for at least two hours andthen trying to delaminate them. I then let them dry and boil them againand soak them for a couple of days. I have not tested a sample that willdelaminate. I have left some samples outside for months (we get a lot ofsummer rain here) and the glue lines still could not be pried apart.Many interior grades of plywood will delaminate the first time they areboiled--one exception is Tec-Ply which is used on floors forunderlayment. I did a boil-soak-dry cycle on it several times and couldnot get it to delaminate. Aircraft plywood is the only ply that I woulduse in an aircraft without first testing a sample.Dick Hartwig________________________________________________________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood
Original Posted By: rhartwig11(at)juno.com
I'm sorry I brought it up.GeneOriginal Message:-----------------
I'm sorry I brought it up.GeneOriginal Message:-----------------
RE: Pietenpol-List: save your back--leave the firewall for last
Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy [mailto:Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov]
Thanks for the information Mike. To new builders, like myself, it's nice tohave so much experience to fall back on. It's little bit's of informationlike this that will take the frustration out of building.KenGN1 2992Canada-----Original Message-----
Thanks for the information Mike. To new builders, like myself, it's nice tohave so much experience to fall back on. It's little bit's of informationlike this that will take the frustration out of building.KenGN1 2992Canada-----Original Message-----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Yeah, Gene - you've been around this list long enough to know that there arecertain topics, like what glue to use, or whether Douglas Fir is as good asSitka Spruce that just naturally stir up the discussions, becauseeverybody's got an opinion on them.I'm getting in the short rows on mine, now. Got the left wing covered andribstitched this past weekend. I'm starting to believe I'll actually fly ita few more months.Jack -----Original Message-----
Yeah, Gene - you've been around this list long enough to know that there arecertain topics, like what glue to use, or whether Douglas Fir is as good asSitka Spruce that just naturally stir up the discussions, becauseeverybody's got an opinion on them.I'm getting in the short rows on mine, now. Got the left wing covered andribstitched this past weekend. I'm starting to believe I'll actually fly ita few more months.Jack -----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood
Original Posted By: "Jack Phillips"
You are my hero!! I am glad to hear you are so close.As for issues, I think it is about time we re-hash, let me see, how abouthow to make/get wire wheels, or maybe whether house latex paint is goodenough, or maybe whether cardboard can be pressed into a laminated spar andsave 15 cents.Thanks for all of your sage advice, mainly how to make the gear. I made aworking pattern that is dead on using your method. I made cardboardpatterns and then cut out and bent the steel fittings (no holes yet) Ibought the spruce and cut all of the angles on the top and bottom of theside legs, and I just received the ash bottom pieces all cut to size andlength. Now I just have to get up the nerve to clamp it all together anddrill the fitting holes. I assume I will pre-drill the inner (probably)fittings, clamp them in place, and drill through to the outer.What I am debating right now is somehow glueing the sides and ash bottomtogether first to make it a little easier. Did you? I was helping myfriend with his house the other day (the one who builds wooden airplanes,too) and we were playing with his biscuit cutter. I am now debating cuttingand installing biscuits to hole the side vees together while I attach thelower fittings. The upper fittings are only partially cut out.As for streamlining, did you do it after it was all bolted together? Is iteasier than it looks, or harder? Did you end the streamlining severalinches from each end or carry it all the way to the ends?Too much to do. I still want to get down to see yours . . .maybe firstflight??????Gene----- Original Message -----
You are my hero!! I am glad to hear you are so close.As for issues, I think it is about time we re-hash, let me see, how abouthow to make/get wire wheels, or maybe whether house latex paint is goodenough, or maybe whether cardboard can be pressed into a laminated spar andsave 15 cents.Thanks for all of your sage advice, mainly how to make the gear. I made aworking pattern that is dead on using your method. I made cardboardpatterns and then cut out and bent the steel fittings (no holes yet) Ibought the spruce and cut all of the angles on the top and bottom of theside legs, and I just received the ash bottom pieces all cut to size andlength. Now I just have to get up the nerve to clamp it all together anddrill the fitting holes. I assume I will pre-drill the inner (probably)fittings, clamp them in place, and drill through to the outer.What I am debating right now is somehow glueing the sides and ash bottomtogether first to make it a little easier. Did you? I was helping myfriend with his house the other day (the one who builds wooden airplanes,too) and we were playing with his biscuit cutter. I am now debating cuttingand installing biscuits to hole the side vees together while I attach thelower fittings. The upper fittings are only partially cut out.As for streamlining, did you do it after it was all bolted together? Is iteasier than it looks, or harder? Did you end the streamlining severalinches from each end or carry it all the way to the ends?Too much to do. I still want to get down to see yours . . .maybe firstflight??????Gene----- Original Message -----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood
Original Posted By: clif
RE: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Good Questions, Gene ...I did not glue the "V" blocks to the struts, but just allowed the fittingsto hold them in place. I drilled the holes in one set of fittings (I thinkI drilled the outside fittings first) then clamped everything together anddrilled through the outside fittings just barely into the wood, tookeverything apart and drilled all the way through the wood on the drill pressso the holes stayed nice and straight and perpendicular, then clamped it allback together and drilled through the inside fittings.I streamlined the struts after all the drilling was done (which is onereason why I didn't glue the struts to the V blocks. I left the ends squareso they would give as much bearing area on the fittings as possible andstreamlined in between the fittings. I clamped the struts down to myworkbench, clamping on the square ends and shaped them by hand, using coarsesandpaper. This was where my laminated struts were a big advantage. Thelaminations made it easy to see if I was shaping them consistently down thelength of the strut.As Mike Cuy says, the sttraight axle landing gear is the most difficult partof the entire project, but it gives an awful lot of satisfaction when it'sdone.Hang in there.Jack -----Original Message-----
Good Questions, Gene ...I did not glue the "V" blocks to the struts, but just allowed the fittingsto hold them in place. I drilled the holes in one set of fittings (I thinkI drilled the outside fittings first) then clamped everything together anddrilled through the outside fittings just barely into the wood, tookeverything apart and drilled all the way through the wood on the drill pressso the holes stayed nice and straight and perpendicular, then clamped it allback together and drilled through the inside fittings.I streamlined the struts after all the drilling was done (which is onereason why I didn't glue the struts to the V blocks. I left the ends squareso they would give as much bearing area on the fittings as possible andstreamlined in between the fittings. I clamped the struts down to myworkbench, clamping on the square ends and shaped them by hand, using coarsesandpaper. This was where my laminated struts were a big advantage. Thelaminations made it easy to see if I was shaping them consistently down thelength of the strut.As Mike Cuy says, the sttraight axle landing gear is the most difficult partof the entire project, but it gives an awful lot of satisfaction when it'sdone.Hang in there.Jack -----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood
Original Posted By: "Gene Rambo"
Hey GeneAs long as you brought up house paint, I'll throw in one small point. Iused it and am still happy with it except I dribbled a little gasoline on itand when I went to wipe off, it became soft and tacky. It did re-dry but Ihave a small spot to touch up.Dick----- Original Message -----
Hey GeneAs long as you brought up house paint, I'll throw in one small point. Iused it and am still happy with it except I dribbled a little gasoline on itand when I went to wipe off, it became soft and tacky. It did re-dry but Ihave a small spot to touch up.Dick----- Original Message -----
> Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood
Original Posted By: "DJ Vegh"
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood>>> Glues> Most modern woodworking glues make joints that are stronger than the> surrounding wood, but that does not mean that they are acceptable for> aircraft structures. We should be very specific when talking about glues> for aircraft use. There are many different types of glue sold under the> brand names of "Weldwood" or "Titebond". Some are excellent for> aircraft--such as Weldwood Resorcinol or Weldwood Plastic Resin and some> are not --such as Weldwood Contact Glue. Titebond Original Wood Glue and> Titebond II Premium Wood Glue glue are definitely not waterproof. Joints> made with them will come apart when the glue joint is thoroughly wetted.>> The urethane glues (like Gorilla Glue) are waterproof and I thought at> one time that they might be an easy to use alternative, but I don't think> I would use them for anything structural. If a urethane glue joint is> not perfect and cured with at least mild clamping or staple/nailing> pressure it can come apart with very little effort. Some boat builders> have quit using urethanes--I am trying to find the specific reason. As> long as there is a question about urethanes I would not consider them for> structural work on aircraft.>> Plywood> I have tested many samples of aircraft and marine plywoods. The testing> consists of immersing them in boiling water for at least two hours and> then trying to delaminate them. I then let them dry and boil them again> and soak them for a couple of days. I have not tested a sample that will> delaminate. I have left some samples outside for months (we get a lot of> summer rain here) and the glue lines still could not be pried apart.> Many interior grades of plywood will delaminate the first time they are> boiled--one exception is Tec-Ply which is used on floors for> underlayment. I did a boil-soak-dry cycle on it several times and could> not get it to delaminate. Aircraft plywood is the only ply that I would> use in an aircraft without first testing a sample.> Dick Hartwig>>________________________________________________________________________________
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood>>> Glues> Most modern woodworking glues make joints that are stronger than the> surrounding wood, but that does not mean that they are acceptable for> aircraft structures. We should be very specific when talking about glues> for aircraft use. There are many different types of glue sold under the> brand names of "Weldwood" or "Titebond". Some are excellent for> aircraft--such as Weldwood Resorcinol or Weldwood Plastic Resin and some> are not --such as Weldwood Contact Glue. Titebond Original Wood Glue and> Titebond II Premium Wood Glue glue are definitely not waterproof. Joints> made with them will come apart when the glue joint is thoroughly wetted.>> The urethane glues (like Gorilla Glue) are waterproof and I thought at> one time that they might be an easy to use alternative, but I don't think> I would use them for anything structural. If a urethane glue joint is> not perfect and cured with at least mild clamping or staple/nailing> pressure it can come apart with very little effort. Some boat builders> have quit using urethanes--I am trying to find the specific reason. As> long as there is a question about urethanes I would not consider them for> structural work on aircraft.>> Plywood> I have tested many samples of aircraft and marine plywoods. The testing> consists of immersing them in boiling water for at least two hours and> then trying to delaminate them. I then let them dry and boil them again> and soak them for a couple of days. I have not tested a sample that will> delaminate. I have left some samples outside for months (we get a lot of> summer rain here) and the glue lines still could not be pried apart.> Many interior grades of plywood will delaminate the first time they are> boiled--one exception is Tec-Ply which is used on floors for> underlayment. I did a boil-soak-dry cycle on it several times and could> not get it to delaminate. Aircraft plywood is the only ply that I would> use in an aircraft without first testing a sample.> Dick Hartwig>>________________________________________________________________________________
> Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood
Original Posted By: lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood>>> Glues> Most modern woodworking glues make joints that are stronger than the> surrounding wood, but that does not mean that they are acceptable for> aircraft structures. We should be very specific when talking about glues> for aircraft use. There are many different types of glue sold under the> brand names of "Weldwood" or "Titebond". Some are excellent for> aircraft--such as Weldwood Resorcinol or Weldwood Plastic Resin and some> are not --such as Weldwood Contact Glue. Titebond Original Wood Glue and> Titebond II Premium Wood Glue glue are definitely not waterproof. Joints> made with them will come apart when the glue joint is thoroughly wetted.>> The urethane glues (like Gorilla Glue) are waterproof and I thought at> one time that they might be an easy to use alternative, but I don't think> I would use them for anything structural. If a urethane glue joint is> not perfect and cured with at least mild clamping or staple/nailing> pressure it can come apart with very little effort. Some boat builders> have quit using urethanes--I am trying to find the specific reason. As> long as there is a question about urethanes I would not consider them for> structural work on aircraft.>> Plywood> I have tested many samples of aircraft and marine plywoods. The testing> consists of immersing them in boiling water for at least two hours and> then trying to delaminate them. I then let them dry and boil them again> and soak them for a couple of days. I have not tested a sample that will> delaminate. I have left some samples outside for months (we get a lot of> summer rain here) and the glue lines still could not be pried apart.> Many interior grades of plywood will delaminate the first time they are> boiled--one exception is Tec-Ply which is used on floors for> underlayment. I did a boil-soak-dry cycle on it several times and could> not get it to delaminate. Aircraft plywood is the only ply that I would> use in an aircraft without first testing a sample.> Dick Hartwig>>________________________________________________________________________________
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood>>> Glues> Most modern woodworking glues make joints that are stronger than the> surrounding wood, but that does not mean that they are acceptable for> aircraft structures. We should be very specific when talking about glues> for aircraft use. There are many different types of glue sold under the> brand names of "Weldwood" or "Titebond". Some are excellent for> aircraft--such as Weldwood Resorcinol or Weldwood Plastic Resin and some> are not --such as Weldwood Contact Glue. Titebond Original Wood Glue and> Titebond II Premium Wood Glue glue are definitely not waterproof. Joints> made with them will come apart when the glue joint is thoroughly wetted.>> The urethane glues (like Gorilla Glue) are waterproof and I thought at> one time that they might be an easy to use alternative, but I don't think> I would use them for anything structural. If a urethane glue joint is> not perfect and cured with at least mild clamping or staple/nailing> pressure it can come apart with very little effort. Some boat builders> have quit using urethanes--I am trying to find the specific reason. As> long as there is a question about urethanes I would not consider them for> structural work on aircraft.>> Plywood> I have tested many samples of aircraft and marine plywoods. The testing> consists of immersing them in boiling water for at least two hours and> then trying to delaminate them. I then let them dry and boil them again> and soak them for a couple of days. I have not tested a sample that will> delaminate. I have left some samples outside for months (we get a lot of> summer rain here) and the glue lines still could not be pried apart.> Many interior grades of plywood will delaminate the first time they are> boiled--one exception is Tec-Ply which is used on floors for> underlayment. I did a boil-soak-dry cycle on it several times and could> not get it to delaminate. Aircraft plywood is the only ply that I would> use in an aircraft without first testing a sample.> Dick Hartwig>>________________________________________________________________________________
> > Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood
Original Posted By: "Oscar Zuniga"
> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood> >> >> >> > Glues> > Most modern woodworking glues make joints that are stronger than the> > surrounding wood, but that does not mean that they are acceptable for> > aircraft structures. We should be very specific when talking aboutglues> > for aircraft use. There are many different types of glue sold under the> > brand names of "Weldwood" or "Titebond". Some are excellent for> > aircraft--such as Weldwood Resorcinol or Weldwood Plastic Resin and some> > are not --such as Weldwood Contact Glue. Titebond Original Wood Glueand> > Titebond II Premium Wood Glue glue are definitely not waterproof.Joints> > made with them will come apart when the glue joint is thoroughly wetted.> >> > The urethane glues (like Gorilla Glue) are waterproof and I thought at> > one time that they might be an easy to use alternative, but I don'tthink> > I would use them for anything structural. If a urethane glue joint is> > not perfect and cured with at least mild clamping or staple/nailing> > pressure it can come apart with very little effort. Some boat builders> > have quit using urethanes--I am trying to find the specific reason. As> > long as there is a question about urethanes I would not consider themfor> > structural work on aircraft.> >> > Plywood> > I have tested many samples of aircraft and marine plywoods. The testing> > consists of immersing them in boiling water for at least two hours and> > then trying to delaminate them. I then let them dry and boil them again> > and soak them for a couple of days. I have not tested a sample thatwill> > delaminate. I have left some samples outside for months (we get a lotof> > summer rain here) and the glue lines still could not be pried apart.> > Many interior grades of plywood will delaminate the first time they are> > boiled--one exception is Tec-Ply which is used on floors for> > underlayment. I did a boil-soak-dry cycle on it several times and could> > not get it to delaminate. Aircraft plywood is the only ply that I would> > use in an aircraft without first testing a sample.> > Dick Hartwig> >> >>>________________________________________________________________________________
> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood> >> >> >> > Glues> > Most modern woodworking glues make joints that are stronger than the> > surrounding wood, but that does not mean that they are acceptable for> > aircraft structures. We should be very specific when talking aboutglues> > for aircraft use. There are many different types of glue sold under the> > brand names of "Weldwood" or "Titebond". Some are excellent for> > aircraft--such as Weldwood Resorcinol or Weldwood Plastic Resin and some> > are not --such as Weldwood Contact Glue. Titebond Original Wood Glueand> > Titebond II Premium Wood Glue glue are definitely not waterproof.Joints> > made with them will come apart when the glue joint is thoroughly wetted.> >> > The urethane glues (like Gorilla Glue) are waterproof and I thought at> > one time that they might be an easy to use alternative, but I don'tthink> > I would use them for anything structural. If a urethane glue joint is> > not perfect and cured with at least mild clamping or staple/nailing> > pressure it can come apart with very little effort. Some boat builders> > have quit using urethanes--I am trying to find the specific reason. As> > long as there is a question about urethanes I would not consider themfor> > structural work on aircraft.> >> > Plywood> > I have tested many samples of aircraft and marine plywoods. The testing> > consists of immersing them in boiling water for at least two hours and> > then trying to delaminate them. I then let them dry and boil them again> > and soak them for a couple of days. I have not tested a sample thatwill> > delaminate. I have left some samples outside for months (we get a lotof> > summer rain here) and the glue lines still could not be pried apart.> > Many interior grades of plywood will delaminate the first time they are> > boiled--one exception is Tec-Ply which is used on floors for> > underlayment. I did a boil-soak-dry cycle on it several times and could> > not get it to delaminate. Aircraft plywood is the only ply that I would> > use in an aircraft without first testing a sample.> > Dick Hartwig> >> >>>________________________________________________________________________________