Original Posted By: "tools"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Watch out for the bad guys out there> I know few of you would consider parting with your Piet or project, > but if > you are trying to sell some other form of "inferior" aircraft, > beware of > the scam buyers out there. I've been trying to sell our Bellanca > for a while > and got an email from someone claiming to be interested. They > didn't try to > bargain on the asking price. They claimed to out of the country in > the > military, and wanted to send an agent/mechanic to check out the > airplane. They > would send a certified check "guaranteed", paying 10% down with an > additional amount for the mechanic, which I was to pass on to him. > > The catch is that the 'cashiers check' is bogus. If you deposit it > in your > bank, and then pay out funds, eventually, the check is returned, > and > you're out whatever you paid the 'mechanic.' If someone wants to > buy your > airplane, insist on a cashiers check drawn on a US bank for a > deposit, to be held > in escrow pending the clearance of the check. A bank wire transfer > is even > better, and you have collected funds pretty much immediately. I'd > heard > about this before, and when I emailed back asking for payment as > above, I, of > course, got no response. > > The thing that pissed me off the worst was that this jerk claimed > to be a > Marine. When he eventually goes to his reward, may he get poked for > all > eternity by a squad of Marines with bayonettes. > > Matt Paxton> NX629ML________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: metal vs wood prop
Pietenpol-List: metal vs wood prop
Original Posted By: Dan Yocum
I'm getting 1950 rpm static with a wood Sensenich 72x42 on a A65. Flies great,but doesn't climb very well, especially with two pax.Was told I'd do better with a metal prop. A friend with a Taylorcraft and a A65timed up to a A75 had the same prop and same experience. He went to a metal72x40 and got a lot better performance.So, another friend, the A and P (IA) who built my friend's A75, had a 72x44 layingaround and said to give it a try, he thought I'd do better even though ithad more pitch.Put it on today and got 2100 static. Can't fly it, the airport is closed... arg.Can't explain why a metal prop does so much better even with more pitch. I broughtboth props home and laid them on the dining room table (need to make somebushings for the back of the metal prop) while I do that. I did notice thatthe metal prop being so much stronger had a cross section about half the size(or less especially as you get to the hub) of the wood prop and wonder if thatloss of "frontal area" is what gives so much more performance.We'll see how it flies soon.ToolsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 15:17:23 -0600
I'm getting 1950 rpm static with a wood Sensenich 72x42 on a A65. Flies great,but doesn't climb very well, especially with two pax.Was told I'd do better with a metal prop. A friend with a Taylorcraft and a A65timed up to a A75 had the same prop and same experience. He went to a metal72x40 and got a lot better performance.So, another friend, the A and P (IA) who built my friend's A75, had a 72x44 layingaround and said to give it a try, he thought I'd do better even though ithad more pitch.Put it on today and got 2100 static. Can't fly it, the airport is closed... arg.Can't explain why a metal prop does so much better even with more pitch. I broughtboth props home and laid them on the dining room table (need to make somebushings for the back of the metal prop) while I do that. I did notice thatthe metal prop being so much stronger had a cross section about half the size(or less especially as you get to the hub) of the wood prop and wonder if thatloss of "frontal area" is what gives so much more performance.We'll see how it flies soon.ToolsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 15:17:23 -0600
Pietenpol-List: Re: metal vs wood prop
Original Posted By: airlion
Ok, I'll double check the tach, but still, isn't it relative? I was surprisedI got MORE rpm from a heavier and higher pitched prop. That's what I'm tryingto figure out.I never really hoped for A4 performance, but this is different. We're pickingour way through the trees! ToolsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 15:40:38 -0800 (PST)
Ok, I'll double check the tach, but still, isn't it relative? I was surprisedI got MORE rpm from a heavier and higher pitched prop. That's what I'm tryingto figure out.I never really hoped for A4 performance, but this is different. We're pickingour way through the trees! ToolsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 15:40:38 -0800 (PST)
Pietenpol-List: Re: metal vs wood prop
Original Posted By: "tools"
Hey guys, thought I would share with you the table top I built. It's 25" x 8' andit's going to be used to build ribs, the tail section, and miscellaneous metalparts. I looked at wood studs but they seemed to be warped. I went to a commercial builderssupply house and bought 18ga steel studs and sandwiched it between two 1/4"solid phenolic sheets. Plywood would work but I just happen to have theselaying around and they already had holes in them. The steel studs made it perfectly flat and its as still as can be. If any of youneed to build a table I'm convinced it would work well for you. The studs wereabout $6 each and come 16 feet long if you need it.Mike--------MikeRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/tabl ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: metal vs wood prop
Hey guys, thought I would share with you the table top I built. It's 25" x 8' andit's going to be used to build ribs, the tail section, and miscellaneous metalparts. I looked at wood studs but they seemed to be warped. I went to a commercial builderssupply house and bought 18ga steel studs and sandwiched it between two 1/4"solid phenolic sheets. Plywood would work but I just happen to have theselaying around and they already had holes in them. The steel studs made it perfectly flat and its as still as can be. If any of youneed to build a table I'm convinced it would work well for you. The studs wereabout $6 each and come 16 feet long if you need it.Mike--------MikeRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/tabl ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: metal vs wood prop
Pietenpol-List: Re: My table built with steel studs
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Ah, well that explains it then. I agree, the wood looks LOTS and LOTS better,but as I mentioned, not going for any records other than a perfect not fly intotrees sort of record!I think the wood prop worked great for Dick (builder and prior owner) as he usuallyflew it alone and up there (Minnesota) most fields have really nice unobstructedapproach and departure paths. Down here in the great hardwood forest,not so much. There's TONS of neat little fields, but they ALL have a wall oftrees to get past.Also, I guess the aluminum prop can be re-pitched, rather than have to look fora new prop altogether. Gonna final install the metal 72-44 and see how it does flying. ToolsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: My table built with steel studs
Ah, well that explains it then. I agree, the wood looks LOTS and LOTS better,but as I mentioned, not going for any records other than a perfect not fly intotrees sort of record!I think the wood prop worked great for Dick (builder and prior owner) as he usuallyflew it alone and up there (Minnesota) most fields have really nice unobstructedapproach and departure paths. Down here in the great hardwood forest,not so much. There's TONS of neat little fields, but they ALL have a wall oftrees to get past.Also, I guess the aluminum prop can be re-pitched, rather than have to look fora new prop altogether. Gonna final install the metal 72-44 and see how it does flying. ToolsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: My table built with steel studs
Pietenpol-List: Re: My table built with steel studs
Original Posted By: "MKJ1928"
Well Mike, I don't doubt that your work table is "stiff as can be". That's a prettyrobust structure. You mention the cost of the studs at $6 each, but there'sno mention of the cost of the phenolic sheets. I just did a quick internetsearch, and if you kept the width down to 24", rather than 25", the phenolic materialwill probably run about $350 (depending on the grade of phenolic sheets- you could spend $1000 if you felt so inclined). I would hazard a guess thatyou were given the material.Aside from the cost, I'm just wondering about the practicality of using phenolicsheets as a work table surface. Phenolic is pretty hard stuff - not so easyfor driving screws into, and also not so good for drawing on (to loft your ribjig or tail parts).(my 2 cents)Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: My table built with steel studs
Well Mike, I don't doubt that your work table is "stiff as can be". That's a prettyrobust structure. You mention the cost of the studs at $6 each, but there'sno mention of the cost of the phenolic sheets. I just did a quick internetsearch, and if you kept the width down to 24", rather than 25", the phenolic materialwill probably run about $350 (depending on the grade of phenolic sheets- you could spend $1000 if you felt so inclined). I would hazard a guess thatyou were given the material.Aside from the cost, I'm just wondering about the practicality of using phenolicsheets as a work table surface. Phenolic is pretty hard stuff - not so easyfor driving screws into, and also not so good for drawing on (to loft your ribjig or tail parts).(my 2 cents)Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: My table built with steel studs
Pietenpol-List: Re: My table built with steel studs
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Hi BillSorry I didn't make it more clear, I just happened to have the phenolic availablebecause my Dad owns a company that manufactures it. The sheets are 4' x 8'out of the press but the sheets I had on hand were from an old pipe rack I madeyears ago.Plywood makes more sense as I indicated. Your right about the ability to mark itthough and I will end up putting a sheet of plywood over it when I'm done tomake life easier. They do make special industrial screws exclusively for phenolicbut it's not worth the hassle of pre-drilling. The post was meant to be about the steel studs instead of wood ones. It reallyworked well and because they are near perfect it makes out for a nice and sturdyflat surface. I just wasn't sure if anybody used steel studs so I figured Iwould offer it up as an option.--------MikeRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: My table built with steel studs
Hi BillSorry I didn't make it more clear, I just happened to have the phenolic availablebecause my Dad owns a company that manufactures it. The sheets are 4' x 8'out of the press but the sheets I had on hand were from an old pipe rack I madeyears ago.Plywood makes more sense as I indicated. Your right about the ability to mark itthough and I will end up putting a sheet of plywood over it when I'm done tomake life easier. They do make special industrial screws exclusively for phenolicbut it's not worth the hassle of pre-drilling. The post was meant to be about the steel studs instead of wood ones. It reallyworked well and because they are near perfect it makes out for a nice and sturdyflat surface. I just wasn't sure if anybody used steel studs so I figured Iwould offer it up as an option.--------MikeRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: My table built with steel studs
Original Posted By: "Clif Dawson"
Okay, it all makes sense now.I agree that finding nice straight wood studs can sometimes be challenging thesedays. Steel studs are always consistently straight and are not affected by moistureor prone to twisting and warping like wood can be. The heavier gauge oneslike you have chosen would be the ones to use for a work surface (as opposedto the light gauge standard studs - they're not so sturdy).Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Okay, it all makes sense now.I agree that finding nice straight wood studs can sometimes be challenging thesedays. Steel studs are always consistently straight and are not affected by moistureor prone to twisting and warping like wood can be. The heavier gauge oneslike you have chosen would be the ones to use for a work surface (as opposedto the light gauge standard studs - they're not so sturdy).Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Re: My table built with steel studs
Original Posted By: "MKJ1928"
I used those steel studs. Riveted two together tomake a stiff tube, one on each long edge of thetable.Screwed cross members of the same everytwo feet. Legs with more studding to hold up plyshelves underneath. Top is 3/4" K3,or whateverit's called down your way. This top can be leveledsix ways from Sunday with those cedar shinglewedges, depending on how anal you want to be. :-)The table is 4' wide by 14' long. Oh, and I made theframe width a couple of inches less so that theoverhang would make for easy clamping of stuff. AlsoI bought a roll of heavy white paper/cardboard tolay on top for lofting. When you finish a bunch ofparts and have that surface covered in lines ( andglue! ) you take it up and lay a fresh sheet for thenext batch.Good Lord! THAT was eleven years ago!!!ClifPilots are a rare kind of human. They leave the ordinary surface of the world, to purify their soul in the sky, and they come down to earth, only after receiving the communion of the infinite."Jos Maria Velasco Ibarra, President of Ecuador>> Well Mike, I don't doubt that your work table is "stiff as can be". That's > a pretty robust structure. You mention the cost of the studs at $6 each, > but there's no mention of the cost of the phenolic sheets.> Bill C.________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: My table built with steel studs
I used those steel studs. Riveted two together tomake a stiff tube, one on each long edge of thetable.Screwed cross members of the same everytwo feet. Legs with more studding to hold up plyshelves underneath. Top is 3/4" K3,or whateverit's called down your way. This top can be leveledsix ways from Sunday with those cedar shinglewedges, depending on how anal you want to be. :-)The table is 4' wide by 14' long. Oh, and I made theframe width a couple of inches less so that theoverhang would make for easy clamping of stuff. AlsoI bought a roll of heavy white paper/cardboard tolay on top for lofting. When you finish a bunch ofparts and have that surface covered in lines ( andglue! ) you take it up and lay a fresh sheet for thenext batch.Good Lord! THAT was eleven years ago!!!ClifPilots are a rare kind of human. They leave the ordinary surface of the world, to purify their soul in the sky, and they come down to earth, only after receiving the communion of the infinite."Jos Maria Velasco Ibarra, President of Ecuador>> Well Mike, I don't doubt that your work table is "stiff as can be". That's > a pretty robust structure. You mention the cost of the studs at $6 each, > but there's no mention of the cost of the phenolic sheets.> Bill C.________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: My table built with steel studs
Pietenpol-List: Re: Father/son build team with engine question
Original Posted By: "MKJ1928"
@ BillYour 100% accurate about the 18ga. I looked at the 20ga first and the differenceis unbelievable. The 18ga feels like a steel beam compared to the 22 or 24.-------I like the idea of riveting two together, I didn't think of that. I bet that wouldmake out for one heck of a strong unit.--------MikeRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Father/son build team with engine question
@ BillYour 100% accurate about the 18ga. I looked at the 20ga first and the differenceis unbelievable. The 18ga feels like a steel beam compared to the 22 or 24.-------I like the idea of riveting two together, I didn't think of that. I bet that wouldmake out for one heck of a strong unit.--------MikeRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Father/son build team with engine question
Original Posted By: "Clif Dawson"
Thanks Chuck and John--------MikeRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Thanks Chuck and John--------MikeRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Re: metal vs wood prop
Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
I'd like to try a 72-40 wood prop, but have this metal prop available to at leastdiagnose and experiment.It is about 10 to 15 lbs heavier, but my plane has a battery installed on the firewallto HELP with w and b. I'd be happy to remove the battery to gain theclimb performance, so the weight is not an issue. I was doing some research and found a great PDF file from Sensenich talking aboutprop suitability. It mentioned that a standard prop should allow the engineto develop rated rpm in level flight. My engine has only ever seen almost 2100rpm in level flight and I think it's rated (still some more reading to do)for 23 to 2400. I saw 2300 once in a full power decent. A cruise prop shouldallow 150 under rated, a climb prop 150 over, all at full power, level flight.My son and I are having a difficult time with these down in the trees fields withmoderate temps. I can't imagine us in the summer when it's HOT and HUMID!And he's pretty light. I flew with Kevin Purtee last summer at Brodhead, hehad NO PROBLEM with him and I at 80 degrees. I know it's an entirely differentsetup, but I'm thinking I should have more climb than I do now. Single occupant, it's no problem as is, though needing such high power settingsfor so long on climb out seems as though I'm probably paying for more fuel thanI really need as well.ToolsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: metal vs wood prop
I'd like to try a 72-40 wood prop, but have this metal prop available to at leastdiagnose and experiment.It is about 10 to 15 lbs heavier, but my plane has a battery installed on the firewallto HELP with w and b. I'd be happy to remove the battery to gain theclimb performance, so the weight is not an issue. I was doing some research and found a great PDF file from Sensenich talking aboutprop suitability. It mentioned that a standard prop should allow the engineto develop rated rpm in level flight. My engine has only ever seen almost 2100rpm in level flight and I think it's rated (still some more reading to do)for 23 to 2400. I saw 2300 once in a full power decent. A cruise prop shouldallow 150 under rated, a climb prop 150 over, all at full power, level flight.My son and I are having a difficult time with these down in the trees fields withmoderate temps. I can't imagine us in the summer when it's HOT and HUMID!And he's pretty light. I flew with Kevin Purtee last summer at Brodhead, hehad NO PROBLEM with him and I at 80 degrees. I know it's an entirely differentsetup, but I'm thinking I should have more climb than I do now. Single occupant, it's no problem as is, though needing such high power settingsfor so long on climb out seems as though I'm probably paying for more fuel thanI really need as well.ToolsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: metal vs wood prop
Original Posted By: Ben Charvet
Props really seem to differ quite a bit from one to the next. Pitches can't reallybe trusted that much from one to the next either. I have a Sensenich 72X 40 on my Chief and really like it. I had a 72 x 44 Hegy that was repitchedto 42 by Hegy on my Piet for a while. I did a lot of prop research a few yearsback and had Ed Sterba carve a 76 x 36 prop. The Piet didn't lose any cruiseand climb was much, much better. The draggy airgrame does much better witha lower pitch larger diameter prop. The gain in disk area from 72" to 76" isabout 11% I believe. Shorter takeoffs and greater climb for sure. Then I boughtFrank Pavliga's Falcon prop mainly because of the looks and the reputationthey have as a good performer. It is a 72 x 44. The performance is almost identicalto the Sterba prop...go figure. Airfoil and how the pitch changes overthe length of the prop must be big variables. I still think, though for themany manufacturers out there, the ideal Piet prop is something like a 76 x 36or a 76 x 38. Although it is the standard for many airplanes, I really don'tthink the Sensenich 72 x 42 is the ideal prop for the Piet. Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 12:21:18 -0500
Props really seem to differ quite a bit from one to the next. Pitches can't reallybe trusted that much from one to the next either. I have a Sensenich 72X 40 on my Chief and really like it. I had a 72 x 44 Hegy that was repitchedto 42 by Hegy on my Piet for a while. I did a lot of prop research a few yearsback and had Ed Sterba carve a 76 x 36 prop. The Piet didn't lose any cruiseand climb was much, much better. The draggy airgrame does much better witha lower pitch larger diameter prop. The gain in disk area from 72" to 76" isabout 11% I believe. Shorter takeoffs and greater climb for sure. Then I boughtFrank Pavliga's Falcon prop mainly because of the looks and the reputationthey have as a good performer. It is a 72 x 44. The performance is almost identicalto the Sterba prop...go figure. Airfoil and how the pitch changes overthe length of the prop must be big variables. I still think, though for themany manufacturers out there, the ideal Piet prop is something like a 76 x 36or a 76 x 38. Although it is the standard for many airplanes, I really don'tthink the Sensenich 72 x 42 is the ideal prop for the Piet. Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 12:21:18 -0500