Original Posted By: "H. Marvin Haught Jr. "
Pietenpol-List: Covering systems
Re: Pietenpol-List: Covering systems
Original Posted By:
Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
Original Posted By: Mario Giacummo
Mixing is called "experimenting" on an experimental.--------Curt MerdanFlower Mound, TXRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Mixing is called "experimenting" on an experimental.--------Curt MerdanFlower Mound, TXRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: being found
Original Posted By: Rick Holland
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systemsI think what he pretend to do is not mixin. Mix is cover one wing with onesystem and the otherone with other.. may be this could be bad.. but thefuselage?.. May be I saw bad, but there isn't one with a rotor engine wichithe fuse look like playwood covered?.. is it plywood, isn't it? ;o)Mario Giacummo2013/8/22 curtdm(at)gmail.com > curtdm(at)gmail.com>>> Mixing is called "experimenting" on an experimental.>> --------> Curt Merdan> Flower Mound, TX>>> Read this topic online here:>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 11:23:21 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: being found
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systemsI think what he pretend to do is not mixin. Mix is cover one wing with onesystem and the otherone with other.. may be this could be bad.. but thefuselage?.. May be I saw bad, but there isn't one with a rotor engine wichithe fuse look like playwood covered?.. is it plywood, isn't it? ;o)Mario Giacummo2013/8/22 curtdm(at)gmail.com > curtdm(at)gmail.com>>> Mixing is called "experimenting" on an experimental.>> --------> Curt Merdan> Flower Mound, TX>>> Read this topic online here:>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 11:23:21 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: being found
Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
Original Posted By: "AircamperN11MS"
This is a huge bucket of worms that is practically impossible to intelligentlydiscuss! Believe me, I'm NOT a huge fan of government intervention (with the exception beingI'm ok with them outlawing straight headed fasteners...). However, whenyou spend much time in a third world environment, you get a little more alrightwith it. But then you spend some time in Europe and wonder what if we go THAT far?!I think the real answer lies reasonable interpretation. In your case, what's thepoint of flying off 40hrs? You did the right thing in getting things straightenedout, and they punish you (in effect). If more reasonable interpretationand enforcement were to be the norm, people would indeed be more inclined totry and follow the rules. To that end, and how I've always looked at this stuff, I believe I just do thebest I can to be safe first, and follow the "rules" second. When I'm knowinglyviolating something and get caught, I simply fess up and take the punishmentlike an adult. Overall, I'm way ahead of the game despite getting caught fora few things rather than have just not done so much because it really isn't feasibleto do it all PERFECTLY legally. It's kind of funny, I've thought a lot about this ELT thing. I believe what I'lldo (I hope big brother isn't watching...) is move the ELT I do own over towhatever I'm getting registered, and keep moving it around to where ever I needit at the time to be as legal as possible, but probably not gonna miss a flightsomewhere, sometime, just because it isn't in there, ya know? I do always make it a practice for someone to know where I am and when, and willtake appropriate action should something go wrong. I believe that is saferthan relying on aging equipment and technology anyway.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
This is a huge bucket of worms that is practically impossible to intelligentlydiscuss! Believe me, I'm NOT a huge fan of government intervention (with the exception beingI'm ok with them outlawing straight headed fasteners...). However, whenyou spend much time in a third world environment, you get a little more alrightwith it. But then you spend some time in Europe and wonder what if we go THAT far?!I think the real answer lies reasonable interpretation. In your case, what's thepoint of flying off 40hrs? You did the right thing in getting things straightenedout, and they punish you (in effect). If more reasonable interpretationand enforcement were to be the norm, people would indeed be more inclined totry and follow the rules. To that end, and how I've always looked at this stuff, I believe I just do thebest I can to be safe first, and follow the "rules" second. When I'm knowinglyviolating something and get caught, I simply fess up and take the punishmentlike an adult. Overall, I'm way ahead of the game despite getting caught fora few things rather than have just not done so much because it really isn't feasibleto do it all PERFECTLY legally. It's kind of funny, I've thought a lot about this ELT thing. I believe what I'lldo (I hope big brother isn't watching...) is move the ELT I do own over towhatever I'm getting registered, and keep moving it around to where ever I needit at the time to be as legal as possible, but probably not gonna miss a flightsomewhere, sometime, just because it isn't in there, ya know? I do always make it a practice for someone to know where I am and when, and willtake appropriate action should something go wrong. I believe that is saferthan relying on aging equipment and technology anyway.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
Pietenpol-List: Re: being found (OT about getting away with stuff)
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
What is meant by mixing the processes, is that you do not want to repair Poly fiberwith the stewart process or visa-versa. The glues for each process are notcompatible. This is how Stewart Wittman was killed in his Tailwind.--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: being found (OT about getting away with stuff)
What is meant by mixing the processes, is that you do not want to repair Poly fiberwith the stewart process or visa-versa. The glues for each process are notcompatible. This is how Stewart Wittman was killed in his Tailwind.--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: being found (OT about getting away with stuff)
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
Original Posted By: Ken Bickers
Tools; there are more people who do the "musical chairs" thing than you think.I know a guy who collects antique and rare motorcycles. He has one set of licenseplates that he keeps current and he puts them on whichever of the bikeshe takes out of his barn to go ride. Ridiculous to keep tags on his 18-20 bikeswhen he can only ride one at a time. As long as he doesn't break any trafficrules or do something stupid to get him pulled over, nobody is the wiser.We should start a trading pool like with the fish scales. One ELT stays currentand legal and we mail it to the next guy who is up for annual inspection. Afterhe passes, he mails it to the next person and so on. Each user pays a fewbucks so there is money to replace the battery every 2 years ;o) Just hopeyou don't get "ramped"...--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 12:04:51 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
Tools; there are more people who do the "musical chairs" thing than you think.I know a guy who collects antique and rare motorcycles. He has one set of licenseplates that he keeps current and he puts them on whichever of the bikeshe takes out of his barn to go ride. Ridiculous to keep tags on his 18-20 bikeswhen he can only ride one at a time. As long as he doesn't break any trafficrules or do something stupid to get him pulled over, nobody is the wiser.We should start a trading pool like with the fish scales. One ELT stays currentand legal and we mail it to the next guy who is up for annual inspection. Afterhe passes, he mails it to the next person and so on. Each user pays a fewbucks so there is money to replace the battery every 2 years ;o) Just hopeyou don't get "ramped"...--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 12:04:51 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
Original Posted By: "AircamperN11MS"
You are absolutely wrong! Stewart Systems is approved for repairs on all othercertified systems, including Poly Fiber! What you say is correct about anyof the other covering systems - none are approved to repair the other. But Stewart'sis an approved repair for all other covering systems. M. Haught Aircraft Fabric & Finishes, LLCOn Aug 22, 2013, at 12:35 PM, AircamperN11MS wrote:> > What is meant by mixing the processes, is that you do not want to repair Polyfiber with the stewart process or visa-versa. The glues for each process arenot compatible. This is how Stewart Wittman was killed in his Tailwind.> > --------> Scott Liefeld> Flying N11MS since March 1972> Steel Tube> C-85-12> Wire Wheels> Brodhead in 1996> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 232#407232> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
You are absolutely wrong! Stewart Systems is approved for repairs on all othercertified systems, including Poly Fiber! What you say is correct about anyof the other covering systems - none are approved to repair the other. But Stewart'sis an approved repair for all other covering systems. M. Haught Aircraft Fabric & Finishes, LLCOn Aug 22, 2013, at 12:35 PM, AircamperN11MS wrote:> > What is meant by mixing the processes, is that you do not want to repair Polyfiber with the stewart process or visa-versa. The glues for each process arenot compatible. This is how Stewart Wittman was killed in his Tailwind.> > --------> Scott Liefeld> Flying N11MS since March 1972> Steel Tube> C-85-12> Wire Wheels> Brodhead in 1996> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 232#407232> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
Original Posted By: "jarheadpilot82"
Your right it was Steve. I guess I had Stewert on my brain. Perhaps it is OK to repair Poly Fiber with Stewert Systems, but you won't findme doing it on my plane. Call me old school if you you want. No mixing for methank you. My 3 cents,--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
Your right it was Steve. I guess I had Stewert on my brain. Perhaps it is OK to repair Poly Fiber with Stewert Systems, but you won't findme doing it on my plane. Call me old school if you you want. No mixing for methank you. My 3 cents,--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
Original Posted By: Ken Bickers
I just sat in a fabric covering class at Oshkosh that was taught by John Goldenbaumof Poly Fiber and he stated what Scott said about not mixing components ofone system with components of another system. Is there somewhere on the Stewart Systems website or publications that says itis compatible with all other systems? Nothing personal Mr. Haught. It is justthe "trust, but verify" part of how I like to look at these types of discussionswhen someone vehemently tells someone else that he is wrong about somethingthat could kill you when flying.If you can find that and post a link, I am sure that it would be a help to allof us. Thanks.--------Semper Fi,Terry HandAthens, GARead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 13:18:21 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
I just sat in a fabric covering class at Oshkosh that was taught by John Goldenbaumof Poly Fiber and he stated what Scott said about not mixing components ofone system with components of another system. Is there somewhere on the Stewart Systems website or publications that says itis compatible with all other systems? Nothing personal Mr. Haught. It is justthe "trust, but verify" part of how I like to look at these types of discussionswhen someone vehemently tells someone else that he is wrong about somethingthat could kill you when flying.If you can find that and post a link, I am sure that it would be a help to allof us. Thanks.--------Semper Fi,Terry HandAthens, GARead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 13:18:21 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
Original Posted By: Andrea Vavassori
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
It should not surprise anyone that any manufacturer would advise to usetheir own products for repairs, for many reasons, not the least of which arethose that would come from their Legal Dept concerning warranties. Still, asMr. Haught correctly stated, Stewart Systems offers their products as apatching process for any solvent based system, as stated in their'Procedures Manual,' under "Repairing Fabric":" REPAIRING FABRICAlways refer to FAA Advisory Circular AC 43.13-1B Chapter 2 before repairingany fabric damage. This advisory circular spells out in detail howparticular injuries to the aircraft fabric are to be repaired.Repairing fabric damage with STEWART SYSTEMS method is a relatively simpleand easy process. In the case of a fabric puncture, the area must bethoroughly cleaned with STEWART SYSTEMS EkoClean Heavy Duty Cleaner (E670)to remove any waxes, silicones, or contaminates which might be present. Ifthe topcoat is STEWART SYSTEMS Waterborne Catalyzed EkoPoly you just need toscuff sand an area 2 around the damaged area before patching. If you areunsure of the topcoat or you know it is something other than STEWART SYSTEMSWaterborne Catalyzed EkoPoly Top Coat, you must sand down to the EkoFillcoat 2 around the damaged area or to bare fabric if repairing a solventbased system. Next glue your patch on the sanded area using EkoBond glue andallow to dry. Heat shrink the fabric ONLY over the open hole under thepatch. Finish Iron the patch edges at 250F. Apply EkoFill to desiredthickness, sand and spray matching top coat. Stewart Systems is FAA approvedfor repairing any certified covering system."Gary BootheNX308MB-----Original Message-----
It should not surprise anyone that any manufacturer would advise to usetheir own products for repairs, for many reasons, not the least of which arethose that would come from their Legal Dept concerning warranties. Still, asMr. Haught correctly stated, Stewart Systems offers their products as apatching process for any solvent based system, as stated in their'Procedures Manual,' under "Repairing Fabric":" REPAIRING FABRICAlways refer to FAA Advisory Circular AC 43.13-1B Chapter 2 before repairingany fabric damage. This advisory circular spells out in detail howparticular injuries to the aircraft fabric are to be repaired.Repairing fabric damage with STEWART SYSTEMS method is a relatively simpleand easy process. In the case of a fabric puncture, the area must bethoroughly cleaned with STEWART SYSTEMS EkoClean Heavy Duty Cleaner (E670)to remove any waxes, silicones, or contaminates which might be present. Ifthe topcoat is STEWART SYSTEMS Waterborne Catalyzed EkoPoly you just need toscuff sand an area 2 around the damaged area before patching. If you areunsure of the topcoat or you know it is something other than STEWART SYSTEMSWaterborne Catalyzed EkoPoly Top Coat, you must sand down to the EkoFillcoat 2 around the damaged area or to bare fabric if repairing a solventbased system. Next glue your patch on the sanded area using EkoBond glue andallow to dry. Heat shrink the fabric ONLY over the open hole under thepatch. Finish Iron the patch edges at 250F. Apply EkoFill to desiredthickness, sand and spray matching top coat. Stewart Systems is FAA approvedfor repairing any certified covering system."Gary BootheNX308MB-----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
Original Posted By: Ken Bickers
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
RE: Pietenpol-List: Sad, sad, sad news :-(
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
There is a great disturbance in the force. RIP PaulBarry-----Original Message-----
There is a great disturbance in the force. RIP PaulBarry-----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
Original Posted By: gliderx5(at)comcast.net
I totally agree about "mixing" systems. I do not mix components and as Andreabrought out, make SURE I have the manual of any system that I am using on handso that I use the proper techniques of application for that system. Gary quotedthe data exactly in a prior post, and copied the manual exactly. "" REPAIRINGFABRICAlways refer to FAA Advisory Circular AC 43.13-1B Chapter 2 before repairingany fabric damage. This advisory circular spells out in detail howparticular injuries to the aircraft fabric are to be repaired.Repairing fabric damage with STEWART SYSTEMS method is a relatively simpleand easy process. In the case of a fabric puncture, the area must bethoroughly cleaned with STEWART SYSTEMS EkoClean Heavy Duty Cleaner (E670)to remove any waxes, silicones, or contaminates which might be present. Ifthe topcoat is STEWART SYSTEMS Waterborne Catalyzed EkoPoly you just need toscuff sand an area 2 around the damaged area before patching. If you areunsure of the topcoat or you know it is something other than STEWART SYSTEMSWaterborne Catalyzed EkoPoly Top Coat, you must sand down to the EkoFillcoat 2 around the damaged area or to bare fabric if repairing a solventbased system. Next glue your patch on the sanded area using EkoBond glue andallow to dry. Heat shrink the fabric ONLY over the open hole under thepatch. Finish Iron the patch edges at 250F. Apply EkoFill to desiredthickness, sand and spray matching top coat. Stewart Systems is FAA approvedfor repairing any certified covering system." That excerpt is on Page 1 of Section 16 in the Stewart Instruction Manual. It can be found at http://www.stewartsystems.aero/support.aspxBy the way, I am a distributor for both Stewarts and SuperFlite, and I don't thinkI was vehement at all, just speaking from a knowledge of fact. And I havecontributed here in the interest of safety and accuracy of information. Thatbenefits all of us. Additionally, I did not intend to say it is compatible with all other systems asin mixing components, but it IS compatible in repairing all other systems ifthe repair is completed as described above. M. Haught Aircraft Fabric & Finishes, LLCOn Aug 22, 2013, at 2:14 PM, jarheadpilot82 wrote:> > I just sat in a fabric covering class at Oshkosh that was taught by John Goldenbaumof Poly Fiber and he stated what Scott said about not mixing componentsof one system with components of another system. > > Is there somewhere on the Stewart Systems website or publications that says itis compatible with all other systems? Nothing personal Mr. Haught. It is justthe "trust, but verify" part of how I like to look at these types of discussionswhen someone vehemently tells someone else that he is wrong about somethingthat could kill you when flying.> > If you can find that and post a link, I am sure that it would be a help to allof us. Thanks.> > --------> Semper Fi,> > Terry Hand> Athens, GA> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 247#407247> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 21:39:24 +0000 (UTC)
I totally agree about "mixing" systems. I do not mix components and as Andreabrought out, make SURE I have the manual of any system that I am using on handso that I use the proper techniques of application for that system. Gary quotedthe data exactly in a prior post, and copied the manual exactly. "" REPAIRINGFABRICAlways refer to FAA Advisory Circular AC 43.13-1B Chapter 2 before repairingany fabric damage. This advisory circular spells out in detail howparticular injuries to the aircraft fabric are to be repaired.Repairing fabric damage with STEWART SYSTEMS method is a relatively simpleand easy process. In the case of a fabric puncture, the area must bethoroughly cleaned with STEWART SYSTEMS EkoClean Heavy Duty Cleaner (E670)to remove any waxes, silicones, or contaminates which might be present. Ifthe topcoat is STEWART SYSTEMS Waterborne Catalyzed EkoPoly you just need toscuff sand an area 2 around the damaged area before patching. If you areunsure of the topcoat or you know it is something other than STEWART SYSTEMSWaterborne Catalyzed EkoPoly Top Coat, you must sand down to the EkoFillcoat 2 around the damaged area or to bare fabric if repairing a solventbased system. Next glue your patch on the sanded area using EkoBond glue andallow to dry. Heat shrink the fabric ONLY over the open hole under thepatch. Finish Iron the patch edges at 250F. Apply EkoFill to desiredthickness, sand and spray matching top coat. Stewart Systems is FAA approvedfor repairing any certified covering system." That excerpt is on Page 1 of Section 16 in the Stewart Instruction Manual. It can be found at http://www.stewartsystems.aero/support.aspxBy the way, I am a distributor for both Stewarts and SuperFlite, and I don't thinkI was vehement at all, just speaking from a knowledge of fact. And I havecontributed here in the interest of safety and accuracy of information. Thatbenefits all of us. Additionally, I did not intend to say it is compatible with all other systems asin mixing components, but it IS compatible in repairing all other systems ifthe repair is completed as described above. M. Haught Aircraft Fabric & Finishes, LLCOn Aug 22, 2013, at 2:14 PM, jarheadpilot82 wrote:> > I just sat in a fabric covering class at Oshkosh that was taught by John Goldenbaumof Poly Fiber and he stated what Scott said about not mixing componentsof one system with components of another system. > > Is there somewhere on the Stewart Systems website or publications that says itis compatible with all other systems? Nothing personal Mr. Haught. It is justthe "trust, but verify" part of how I like to look at these types of discussionswhen someone vehemently tells someone else that he is wrong about somethingthat could kill you when flying.> > If you can find that and post a link, I am sure that it would be a help to allof us. Thanks.> > --------> Semper Fi,> > Terry Hand> Athens, GA> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 247#407247> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 21:39:24 +0000 (UTC)
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
Original Posted By:> "H. Marvin Haught Jr."
It all depends upon how the STC is worded, and how different regions of the FAA interpret both their standards and the particular STC. Recently a local AI wanted to cover a certified airplane with Stewarts, but the customer wanted a solvent based paint. =46rom what I understand, the FAA interpreted the EkoFill as the finish coat as the fabric was protected and sealed from contaminates, deterioration and UV. I made the point with him that the Stewart STC is completed only by the waterborne topcoat. But apparently, it was approved and signed off. I do not believe that situation was entirely legal, but it is signed off and flying. Since I have not seen the actual documentation, I can't verify the story, but throw it out as an example. I also know of a Pitts Special that was recovered by a large shop. I do not know what brand of fabric or if any "system" was used, but I think it was basically PolyFiber, and painted with a Dupont Topcoat with a flex additive. I don't know how that sort of a thing gets done, legally. And again, I have not be able to verify the facts, but that was what the owner told me. I believe that generally, the STC is interpreted as being a complete system through paint, and that any substitutions are not legal nor permitted. And I doubt that any of the companies would warranty a cover job if there are any deviations from the "system" which also includes application techniques. I know that Stewart's and SuperFlite will not honor a warranty claim unless the whole system used. To me, even a Piet is too much of an investment, even if only in time and effort, to risk having to recover it in a short period of time by using any questionable covering practices. Normally, I don't think safety would be involved, but the example of Steve Whitman shows that even errors in application techniques could possibly kill you. The short answer is that the process is the STC, which includes the application manual for each of the different systems. M. Haught On Aug 22, 2013, at 4:39 PM, gliderx5(at)comcast.net wrote:> For certified aircraft both Polyfiber and Stewarts processes are approved, but does anybody know where the processes really start and end? > > With Polyfiber you prep the frame, glue with polytac, stitch, tape with polybrush, spray 2 coats of polybrush, 3 coats of polyspray, and an undetermined number of color coats (polytone or aerothane). It's interesting that the manual says they "recommend" polytone or areothane, it does not say "require" which leads me to believe that other paints may be substituted. If the color coats are not part of the "system", then what about the polyspray or the polybrush? Neither attach the fabric to the frame so as long as the polytac/polybrush system of gluing and taping are followed (or Stewarts ecobond) the fabric should remain attached. Everything else is UV protection, weave filling, and decoration. I realize that I'm trying to reason my way into a conclusion on a matter dictated by the FAA, but I am curious on what defines the "process". Anyone know for sure?> > Malcolm>
It all depends upon how the STC is worded, and how different regions of the FAA interpret both their standards and the particular STC. Recently a local AI wanted to cover a certified airplane with Stewarts, but the customer wanted a solvent based paint. =46rom what I understand, the FAA interpreted the EkoFill as the finish coat as the fabric was protected and sealed from contaminates, deterioration and UV. I made the point with him that the Stewart STC is completed only by the waterborne topcoat. But apparently, it was approved and signed off. I do not believe that situation was entirely legal, but it is signed off and flying. Since I have not seen the actual documentation, I can't verify the story, but throw it out as an example. I also know of a Pitts Special that was recovered by a large shop. I do not know what brand of fabric or if any "system" was used, but I think it was basically PolyFiber, and painted with a Dupont Topcoat with a flex additive. I don't know how that sort of a thing gets done, legally. And again, I have not be able to verify the facts, but that was what the owner told me. I believe that generally, the STC is interpreted as being a complete system through paint, and that any substitutions are not legal nor permitted. And I doubt that any of the companies would warranty a cover job if there are any deviations from the "system" which also includes application techniques. I know that Stewart's and SuperFlite will not honor a warranty claim unless the whole system used. To me, even a Piet is too much of an investment, even if only in time and effort, to risk having to recover it in a short period of time by using any questionable covering practices. Normally, I don't think safety would be involved, but the example of Steve Whitman shows that even errors in application techniques could possibly kill you. The short answer is that the process is the STC, which includes the application manual for each of the different systems. M. Haught On Aug 22, 2013, at 4:39 PM, gliderx5(at)comcast.net wrote:> For certified aircraft both Polyfiber and Stewarts processes are approved, but does anybody know where the processes really start and end? > > With Polyfiber you prep the frame, glue with polytac, stitch, tape with polybrush, spray 2 coats of polybrush, 3 coats of polyspray, and an undetermined number of color coats (polytone or aerothane). It's interesting that the manual says they "recommend" polytone or areothane, it does not say "require" which leads me to believe that other paints may be substituted. If the color coats are not part of the "system", then what about the polyspray or the polybrush? Neither attach the fabric to the frame so as long as the polytac/polybrush system of gluing and taping are followed (or Stewarts ecobond) the fabric should remain attached. Everything else is UV protection, weave filling, and decoration. I realize that I'm trying to reason my way into a conclusion on a matter dictated by the FAA, but I am curious on what defines the "process". Anyone know for sure?> > Malcolm>
Pietenpol-List: Re: NX626E
Original Posted By: "BYD"
Tools what are straight headed fasteners?Sent from my iPadJack TextorOn Aug 22, 2013, at 12:33 PM, "tools" wrote:> > This is a huge bucket of worms that is practically impossible to intelligentlydiscuss! > > Believe me, I'm NOT a huge fan of government intervention (with the exceptionbeing I'm ok with them outlawing straight headed fasteners...). However, whenyou spend much time in a third world environment, you get a little more alrightwith it. > > But then you spend some time in Europe and wonder what if we go THAT far?!> > I think the real answer lies reasonable interpretation. In your case, what'sthe point of flying off 40hrs? You did the right thing in getting things straightenedout, and they punish you (in effect). If more reasonable interpretationand enforcement were to be the norm, people would indeed be more inclinedto try and follow the rules. > > To that end, and how I've always looked at this stuff, I believe I just do thebest I can to be safe first, and follow the "rules" second. When I'm knowinglyviolating something and get caught, I simply fess up and take the punishmentlike an adult. Overall, I'm way ahead of the game despite getting caught fora few things rather than have just not done so much because it really isn'tfeasible to do it all PERFECTLY legally. > > It's kind of funny, I've thought a lot about this ELT thing. I believe whatI'll do (I hope big brother isn't watching...) is move the ELT I do own over towhatever I'm getting registered, and keep moving it around to where ever I needit at the time to be as legal as possible, but probably not gonna miss a flightsomewhere, sometime, just because it isn't in there, ya know? > > I do always make it a practice for someone to know where I am and when, and willtake appropriate action should something go wrong. I believe that is saferthan relying on aging equipment and technology anyway.> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 231#407231> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: NX626E
Tools what are straight headed fasteners?Sent from my iPadJack TextorOn Aug 22, 2013, at 12:33 PM, "tools" wrote:> > This is a huge bucket of worms that is practically impossible to intelligentlydiscuss! > > Believe me, I'm NOT a huge fan of government intervention (with the exceptionbeing I'm ok with them outlawing straight headed fasteners...). However, whenyou spend much time in a third world environment, you get a little more alrightwith it. > > But then you spend some time in Europe and wonder what if we go THAT far?!> > I think the real answer lies reasonable interpretation. In your case, what'sthe point of flying off 40hrs? You did the right thing in getting things straightenedout, and they punish you (in effect). If more reasonable interpretationand enforcement were to be the norm, people would indeed be more inclinedto try and follow the rules. > > To that end, and how I've always looked at this stuff, I believe I just do thebest I can to be safe first, and follow the "rules" second. When I'm knowinglyviolating something and get caught, I simply fess up and take the punishmentlike an adult. Overall, I'm way ahead of the game despite getting caught fora few things rather than have just not done so much because it really isn'tfeasible to do it all PERFECTLY legally. > > It's kind of funny, I've thought a lot about this ELT thing. I believe whatI'll do (I hope big brother isn't watching...) is move the ELT I do own over towhatever I'm getting registered, and keep moving it around to where ever I needit at the time to be as legal as possible, but probably not gonna miss a flightsomewhere, sometime, just because it isn't in there, ya know? > > I do always make it a practice for someone to know where I am and when, and willtake appropriate action should something go wrong. I believe that is saferthan relying on aging equipment and technology anyway.> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 231#407231> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: NX626E
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: being found (OT about getting away with stuff)
Original Posted By: Jack
Just to prove Im not a four flusher heres the photographic proof I said wouldbe coming....http://youtu.be/0y4PnKwikvMRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: being found (OT about getting away with stuff)
Just to prove Im not a four flusher heres the photographic proof I said wouldbe coming....http://youtu.be/0y4PnKwikvMRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: being found (OT about getting away with stuff)
Pietenpol-List: Re: being found (OT about getting away with stuff)
Original Posted By: "tools"
Jeez I think I just figured it out! As opposed to phillips correct...Sent from my iPadJack TextorOn Aug 22, 2013, at 7:11 PM, Jack wrote:> > Tools what are straight headed fasteners?> > Sent from my iPad> Jack Textor> > On Aug 22, 2013, at 12:33 PM, "tools" wrote:> >> >> This is a huge bucket of worms that is practically impossible to intelligentlydiscuss! >> >> Believe me, I'm NOT a huge fan of government intervention (with the exceptionbeing I'm ok with them outlawing straight headed fasteners...). However, whenyou spend much time in a third world environment, you get a little more alrightwith it. >> >> But then you spend some time in Europe and wonder what if we go THAT far?!>> >> I think the real answer lies reasonable interpretation. In your case, what'sthe point of flying off 40hrs? You did the right thing in getting things straightenedout, and they punish you (in effect). If more reasonable interpretationand enforcement were to be the norm, people would indeed be more inclinedto try and follow the rules. >> >> To that end, and how I've always looked at this stuff, I believe I just do thebest I can to be safe first, and follow the "rules" second. When I'm knowinglyviolating something and get caught, I simply fess up and take the punishmentlike an adult. Overall, I'm way ahead of the game despite getting caughtfor a few things rather than have just not done so much because it really isn'tfeasible to do it all PERFECTLY legally. >> >> It's kind of funny, I've thought a lot about this ELT thing. I believe whatI'll do (I hope big brother isn't watching...) is move the ELT I do own overto whatever I'm getting registered, and keep moving it around to where ever Ineed it at the time to be as legal as possible, but probably not gonna miss aflight somewhere, sometime, just because it isn't in there, ya know? >> >> I do always make it a practice for someone to know where I am and when, andwill take appropriate action should something go wrong. I believe that is saferthan relying on aging equipment and technology anyway.>> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here:>> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 231#407231> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: being found (OT about getting away with stuff)
Jeez I think I just figured it out! As opposed to phillips correct...Sent from my iPadJack TextorOn Aug 22, 2013, at 7:11 PM, Jack wrote:> > Tools what are straight headed fasteners?> > Sent from my iPad> Jack Textor> > On Aug 22, 2013, at 12:33 PM, "tools" wrote:> >> >> This is a huge bucket of worms that is practically impossible to intelligentlydiscuss! >> >> Believe me, I'm NOT a huge fan of government intervention (with the exceptionbeing I'm ok with them outlawing straight headed fasteners...). However, whenyou spend much time in a third world environment, you get a little more alrightwith it. >> >> But then you spend some time in Europe and wonder what if we go THAT far?!>> >> I think the real answer lies reasonable interpretation. In your case, what'sthe point of flying off 40hrs? You did the right thing in getting things straightenedout, and they punish you (in effect). If more reasonable interpretationand enforcement were to be the norm, people would indeed be more inclinedto try and follow the rules. >> >> To that end, and how I've always looked at this stuff, I believe I just do thebest I can to be safe first, and follow the "rules" second. When I'm knowinglyviolating something and get caught, I simply fess up and take the punishmentlike an adult. Overall, I'm way ahead of the game despite getting caughtfor a few things rather than have just not done so much because it really isn'tfeasible to do it all PERFECTLY legally. >> >> It's kind of funny, I've thought a lot about this ELT thing. I believe whatI'll do (I hope big brother isn't watching...) is move the ELT I do own overto whatever I'm getting registered, and keep moving it around to where ever Ineed it at the time to be as legal as possible, but probably not gonna miss aflight somewhere, sometime, just because it isn't in there, ya know? >> >> I do always make it a practice for someone to know where I am and when, andwill take appropriate action should something go wrong. I believe that is saferthan relying on aging equipment and technology anyway.>> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here:>> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 231#407231> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: being found (OT about getting away with stuff)
Original Posted By: gliderx5(at)comcast.net
Yep, that's them. These days, just have no use for them...Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 01:08:31 +0000 (UTC)
Yep, that's them. These days, just have no use for them...Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 01:08:31 +0000 (UTC)
Re: Pietenpol-List: being found
Original Posted By: danhelsper(at)aol.com
Bill, an amazing video. Looks like old hat to you. Fantastic job. Now I have abig question to ask of you. Can I copy your parking brake system or do you havea patent on it? I could pay you a royalty.--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: being found
Bill, an amazing video. Looks like old hat to you. Fantastic job. Now I have abig question to ask of you. Can I copy your parking brake system or do you havea patent on it? I could pay you a royalty.--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: being found
Original Posted By: Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC] (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage
Mike: I agree. I do not have one, nor do I ever plan on having one......practically speaking, (not in the vocabulary of logically thinking men....:.read: FAA policy-maker's), it is not necessary to install one of these morfadite contraptions, in this type of airplane, in my opinion. Dan HelsperPuryear, TN-----Original Message-----
Mike: I agree. I do not have one, nor do I ever plan on having one......practically speaking, (not in the vocabulary of logically thinking men....:.read: FAA policy-maker's), it is not necessary to install one of these morfadite contraptions, in this type of airplane, in my opinion. Dan HelsperPuryear, TN-----Original Message-----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: NX626E
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BYD
Fantastic, Bill!!Gary BootheNX308MB-----Original Message-----
Fantastic, Bill!!Gary BootheNX308MB-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
Original Posted By: "curtdm(at)gmail.com"
Steve, there was no answer below your post about leaving the scallops on wood props.Perhaps you forgot to add the attachment(s)?--------Billy McCaskillBaker, LAtail section almost done, starting on ribs soonRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
Steve, there was no answer below your post about leaving the scallops on wood props.Perhaps you forgot to add the attachment(s)?--------Billy McCaskillBaker, LAtail section almost done, starting on ribs soonRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering systems
Original Posted By: Jim Boyer
Wow, look what one word lead to. >From the original question posed, I never even thought about mixing the differentchemicals or repairing using different systems. I don't think John did either.Just using different processes for different parts of the airplane. Why one would, I don't know. Can they? I don't see why not.--------Curt MerdanFlower Mound, TXRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 03:20:01 +0000 (UTC)
Wow, look what one word lead to. >From the original question posed, I never even thought about mixing the differentchemicals or repairing using different systems. I don't think John did either.Just using different processes for different parts of the airplane. Why one would, I don't know. Can they? I don't see why not.--------Curt MerdanFlower Mound, TXRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 03:20:01 +0000 (UTC)
RE: Pietenpol-List: Covering systems
Original Posted By:> jbfjr(at)peoplepc.com
Who would know? Chuck> Date: Thu=2C 22 Aug 2013 11:48:22 -0500
Who would know? Chuck> Date: Thu=2C 22 Aug 2013 11:48:22 -0500
Pietenpol-List: Re: NX626E
Original Posted By: Ray Krause
Way to go Bill - great inspiration....!!!!Bernard would be very pleased.THANKS for posting the video..................................Jake--------Jake Schultz - curator,Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Way to go Bill - great inspiration....!!!!Bernard would be very pleased.THANKS for posting the video..................................Jake--------Jake Schultz - curator,Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Re: NX626E
Original Posted By: "echobravo4"
Way too cool! That was quite an adventurous flight for the FIRST FLIGHT!You are an inspiration.Thanks,Ray Krause SkyScout in progressSent from my iPadOn Aug 22, 2013, at 5:18 PM, "BYD" wrote:> > Just to prove Im not a four flusher heres the photographic proof I said wouldbe coming....> > http://youtu.be/0y4PnKwikvM> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 283#407283> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: NX626E
Way too cool! That was quite an adventurous flight for the FIRST FLIGHT!You are an inspiration.Thanks,Ray Krause SkyScout in progressSent from my iPadOn Aug 22, 2013, at 5:18 PM, "BYD" wrote:> > Just to prove Im not a four flusher heres the photographic proof I said wouldbe coming....> > http://youtu.be/0y4PnKwikvM> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 283#407283> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: NX626E