Original Posted By: "giacummo"
My wife complained when I told her we needed to stop at Harbor freight for moreclamps. She thought the arm load I had already bought was sufficient. NowI find when building ribs, Im still short. The rib in the jig takes most ofmy small clamps, and I can't put the opposite side gussets on the rib I finishedthe day before. So it's back to Harbor freight!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ailerons, up and down
Pietenpol-List: Ailerons, up and down
Original Posted By: "Jack"
Hello,I am reading a LAA TADS 047 Pietenpol Aircamper ( I tink you know what iti is,don't you?) and it said about the ailerons deflection the following: 15 Up, and20 Down.My question is.. How do you do that? this problem do not lose my sleep, but Ican not see how to do it.--------Mario GiacummoPhotos here: http://goo.gl/wh7M4Little Blog : http://vgmk1.blogspot.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Hello,I am reading a LAA TADS 047 Pietenpol Aircamper ( I tink you know what iti is,don't you?) and it said about the ailerons deflection the following: 15 Up, and20 Down.My question is.. How do you do that? this problem do not lose my sleep, but Ican not see how to do it.--------Mario GiacummoPhotos here: http://goo.gl/wh7M4Little Blog : http://vgmk1.blogspot.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Ailerons, up and down
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Mario not sure of your question, how to measure? I used a digital anglefinder. If you don't have one you can calculate and cut from cardboard likeattached.Jack TextorWest Des Moines, IA-----Original Message-----
Mario not sure of your question, how to measure? I used a digital anglefinder. If you don't have one you can calculate and cut from cardboard likeattached.Jack TextorWest Des Moines, IA-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Hey tools, Yes it is the same Sparky. He handed my Piet to me in 1993. He acquired his currentGN-1 from a close friend of his. It was damaged in a ground loop. Dad rebuiltit and has been flying it since. The same plane you flew in.I used to take my Piet to the Edwards AFB fly in every year. One morning I Wasable to push the Piet over to the B2 and got a great pic. At the time I was amechanic at LAFD. I am now an Equipment Specialist at LAFD. I design and writethe specifications for all the fire departments equipment. I never did work onthe B2.Dad said he was ready to sell his GN-1. He wants to show the buyer that it is agood flyer and then sell it as parts or project. Let the new owner do what hewants with it. Maybe recover it and license it as a new plane. It has an O-200w about 300hours SMOH. The fuse is 2 inches wider and deeper. It makes it niceand roomy. Dad also has his KR2 and flies it weekly.--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Hey tools, Yes it is the same Sparky. He handed my Piet to me in 1993. He acquired his currentGN-1 from a close friend of his. It was damaged in a ground loop. Dad rebuiltit and has been flying it since. The same plane you flew in.I used to take my Piet to the Edwards AFB fly in every year. One morning I Wasable to push the Piet over to the B2 and got a great pic. At the time I was amechanic at LAFD. I am now an Equipment Specialist at LAFD. I design and writethe specifications for all the fire departments equipment. I never did work onthe B2.Dad said he was ready to sell his GN-1. He wants to show the buyer that it is agood flyer and then sell it as parts or project. Let the new owner do what hewants with it. Maybe recover it and license it as a new plane. It has an O-200w about 300hours SMOH. The fuse is 2 inches wider and deeper. It makes it niceand roomy. Dad also has his KR2 and flies it weekly.--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Mario,I think I understand what you are asking.The geometry of the aileron horn will automatically provide the required differential.As seen in the attached clip from the plans, the aileron horn is designedso that the top arm (distance between connection point and pivot point) isshorter than the bottom arm. Thus, when the control cable is pulled a givendistance (say 1 inch), the top arm will swing through a larger angle than itwould if connected to the bottom arm. Because the control cables can only bepulled (not pushed), the movements of the ailerons are governed by the cablesthat are being pulled. The tensions in the control cables will, of course beuneven, but this is normal.Hope this helps.Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/aile ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Mario,I think I understand what you are asking.The geometry of the aileron horn will automatically provide the required differential.As seen in the attached clip from the plans, the aileron horn is designedso that the top arm (distance between connection point and pivot point) isshorter than the bottom arm. Thus, when the control cable is pulled a givendistance (say 1 inch), the top arm will swing through a larger angle than itwould if connected to the bottom arm. Because the control cables can only bepulled (not pushed), the movements of the ailerons are governed by the cablesthat are being pulled. The tensions in the control cables will, of course beuneven, but this is normal.Hope this helps.Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/aile ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Original Posted By: "jarheadpilot82"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and downThis is the answer I was waiting. Thank you Bill, now I can sleep pacefully.the doc I talk about is this one:https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzIyXu ... gardsMario Giacummo2014/1/2 Bill Church > billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>>> Mario,> I think I understand what you are asking.> The geometry of the aileron horn will automatically provide the required> differential. As seen in the attached clip from the plans, the aileron> horn is designed so that the top arm (distance between connection point and> pivot point) is shorter than the bottom arm. Thus, when the control cable> is pulled a given distance (say 1 inch), the top arm will swing through a> larger angle than it would if connected to the bottom arm. Because the> control cables can only be pulled (not pushed), the movements of the> ailerons are governed by the cables that are being pulled. The tensions in> the control cables will, of course be uneven, but this is normal.> Hope this helps.> Bill C.>>> Read this topic online here:>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 464#416464>>> Attachments:>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/aile ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and downThis is the answer I was waiting. Thank you Bill, now I can sleep pacefully.the doc I talk about is this one:https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzIyXu ... gardsMario Giacummo2014/1/2 Bill Church > billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>>> Mario,> I think I understand what you are asking.> The geometry of the aileron horn will automatically provide the required> differential. As seen in the attached clip from the plans, the aileron> horn is designed so that the top arm (distance between connection point and> pivot point) is shorter than the bottom arm. Thus, when the control cable> is pulled a given distance (say 1 inch), the top arm will swing through a> larger angle than it would if connected to the bottom arm. Because the> control cables can only be pulled (not pushed), the movements of the> ailerons are governed by the cables that are being pulled. The tensions in> the control cables will, of course be uneven, but this is normal.> Hope this helps.> Bill C.>>> Read this topic online here:>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 464#416464>>> Attachments:>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/aile ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Pietenpol-List: Re: Scouting for a new home
Original Posted By: "tools"
Bill,This is the data to which he was referring. Is that a typo in the U.K. Data Sheet?Just curious.--------Semper Fi,Terry HandAthens, GARead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/imag ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Scouting for a new home
Bill,This is the data to which he was referring. Is that a typo in the U.K. Data Sheet?Just curious.--------Semper Fi,Terry HandAthens, GARead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/imag ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Scouting for a new home
Pietenpol-List: Re: Scouting for a new home
Original Posted By: "tools"
Dang, small world! Glad to hear your dad is doing well. That was a pretty coolflight for me. It IS a great flying airplane, lots of power, roomy for a Piet,for sure.I'm sure your dad will remember Stewart, I'm still in regular touch with him, visitedhim south of Dallas last May. Him and Marg are doing really really well.I've got a good pic of my A4 next to my dad's Hatz, and always thought that picof the B2 and your Piet was fantastic. Post it if you have it and are able,would love to archive it. Not sure if he'll remember taking me along (got to thinking it was probably earlierthan 95, possibly a couple years, seem to recall he just got the GN-1 flying),I definitely got the feeling he gave lots of rides, but pass along my continuingthanks and well wishes for the new year!Cheers,Mike DanfordRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Scouting for a new home
Dang, small world! Glad to hear your dad is doing well. That was a pretty coolflight for me. It IS a great flying airplane, lots of power, roomy for a Piet,for sure.I'm sure your dad will remember Stewart, I'm still in regular touch with him, visitedhim south of Dallas last May. Him and Marg are doing really really well.I've got a good pic of my A4 next to my dad's Hatz, and always thought that picof the B2 and your Piet was fantastic. Post it if you have it and are able,would love to archive it. Not sure if he'll remember taking me along (got to thinking it was probably earlierthan 95, possibly a couple years, seem to recall he just got the GN-1 flying),I definitely got the feeling he gave lots of rides, but pass along my continuingthanks and well wishes for the new year!Cheers,Mike DanfordRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Scouting for a new home
Original Posted By: Ray Krause
By the way, also always thought it would be so cool to have "dad's" plane, I'mquite jealous. I'll probably take a stab some day at finding my dad's old plane.Not sure where I got the idea you worked on the B2. However, just makes it allthat more impressive you got to get next to it considering you didn't! Especiallyway back then. I used to fly a lot of approaches at Wightman and they gothinky if you even considered flying over the ramp, much less walking up toone... Cheers!ToolsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
By the way, also always thought it would be so cool to have "dad's" plane, I'mquite jealous. I'll probably take a stab some day at finding my dad's old plane.Not sure where I got the idea you worked on the B2. However, just makes it allthat more impressive you got to get next to it considering you didn't! Especiallyway back then. I used to fly a lot of approaches at Wightman and they gothinky if you even considered flying over the ramp, much less walking up toone... Cheers!ToolsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Way to go Jake!Nice work.Douwe________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Way to go Jake!Nice work.Douwe________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Original Posted By: Scott Knowlton
My assumption would be that it must be a typo. The geometry of the horn will resultin greater upward deflection than downward. And that is the way it shouldbe.Here's a clip from Wikipedia (so it MUST be true)Differential aileronsBy careful design of the mechanical linkages, the up aileron can be made to deflectmore than the down aileron (e.g., US patent 1565097).[33] This helps reducethe likelihood of a wing tip stall when aileron deflections are made at highangles of attack. The idea is that the loss of lift associated with the up aileroncarries no penalty while the increase in lift associated with the downaileron is minimized.And here's something from a website called Datwiki.nethttp://tinyurl.com/m69jkjlDifferential Aileron Travel (airplane Control System) The difference between the upward and downward travel of an aileron. An aileronmoves a greater number of degrees upward than downward to counteract adverseyaw. The downward-moving aileron produces both induced and parasite drag, butthe upward-moving aileron produces only parasite drag. To prevent the combineddrag causing the nose of the airplane to start to move toward the down aileron,the up aileron travels a greater distance, producing enough additional parasitedrag to overcome the induced drag caused by the down aileron. See adverseyaw.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
My assumption would be that it must be a typo. The geometry of the horn will resultin greater upward deflection than downward. And that is the way it shouldbe.Here's a clip from Wikipedia (so it MUST be true)Differential aileronsBy careful design of the mechanical linkages, the up aileron can be made to deflectmore than the down aileron (e.g., US patent 1565097).[33] This helps reducethe likelihood of a wing tip stall when aileron deflections are made at highangles of attack. The idea is that the loss of lift associated with the up aileroncarries no penalty while the increase in lift associated with the downaileron is minimized.And here's something from a website called Datwiki.nethttp://tinyurl.com/m69jkjlDifferential Aileron Travel (airplane Control System) The difference between the upward and downward travel of an aileron. An aileronmoves a greater number of degrees upward than downward to counteract adverseyaw. The downward-moving aileron produces both induced and parasite drag, butthe upward-moving aileron produces only parasite drag. To prevent the combineddrag causing the nose of the airplane to start to move toward the down aileron,the up aileron travels a greater distance, producing enough additional parasitedrag to overcome the induced drag caused by the down aileron. See adverseyaw.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Original Posted By: "Dennis Engelkenjohn"
After reading this thread some 5 weeks ago, I've awoken with the question in myhead, as Giacommo did, as to how and why differential aileron control works.So, bear with me, and let's have a little fun with this on a cold February night!Yup, even here in Houston it's pretty cold yet... but I digress...Imagine if you can, that the control wires are only attached to the lower aileronhorns, and further, that the wires are in fact tiny diameter rigid wires, suchthat, if they were pulled or pushed, there would be neither slack nor stretch.(In our actual aileron controls, we want both of the lower horns to be identical,both of the top horns to be identical, and both the left hand an righthand stick horns to be identical.) Still with me? Great! Let's continue...Now, when the stick is moved to the left... the eye attached to this rigid cablemoves exactly 2.0 inches. Conversely, when the stick is moved to the right,the eye on the other side of the stick moves exactly 2.0 inches, as well. Ifthis weren't the case, there would a larger aileron angle on one side than theother, and we just don't want that. So, if the eye on the stick 'horn moves identically side to side, the aileron lowercontrol horns do as well. Are you beginning to see the point? Maybe not,so let's delve further into this...The upper aileron control horns are really along for the ride... in a sense, becausethey only balance the movement from one side to another. So, we ask, how are ailerons made to operate differentially? Simple, thru designgeometry of the control system, specifically the horns. Since the 'horn moves let us say, 2 in. fore, and 2 in. aft... the geometry ofthe horn is the only consideration needed to create differential control. Whatthe airframe designer does is determine how much displacement he can designinto the control system, and then adjust the horn angles and lengths to get thedisplacement and angular motion he desires.In the attachment, you'll see some angles, and some dimensions - these are lookingat the left hand aileron control horn from the cockpit. For the moment, forgetabout the top aileron horn, as, like I stated earlier, for our purpose,it's only along for the ride. The attachment will require a little thought tounderstand, but you'll get it quickly. Prior to moving the ailerons, the stickwill be in the neutral position, and accordingly, the line labeled N is wherethe centerline of the control horn eye will be located. When the stick ismove to the right, the cable will move - in this case - 1.95 inches, pullingthe aileron down. When the stick is moved to the left, that same displacementof 1.95 inches yields a larger angle, and that angle is determined solely bycontrol horn geometry. (The angle of 41.4 deg. from a line perpendicular to thebottom of the airfoil determines the angles shown for the equal displacementyielding 15 and 20 degrees of down and up aileron, respectively.)Back to the top control horn... Whether the horn is 3 in. from the instant center,or 3 ft, doesn't matter, as the other horn will be identical, and the twohorns will displace exactly the same distance. Like I said earlier, the top hornsonly create the balance needed in the system.Now for the bad news... the control geometry of the Piet does NOT provide the typeof differential control we want in an aircraft; the angles given in the LAAdocument of 15 deg. up and 20 deg. down appear to be correct per the Hoopmandrawings, and if you want proper differential controls, you will need to redesignyour control horns on your own. Perhaps these angles work well with theFC-10 airfoil; one can only guess, as there are dozens if not hundreds of Piet'sbeing flown with them, and they appear to be OK. There will be a small amount of cable geometry to be considered, but I thoughtit would be beyond the basics shown here. Shoot me comments, but DON'T SHOOT ME!--------Tom KreinerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/cont ... __________
After reading this thread some 5 weeks ago, I've awoken with the question in myhead, as Giacommo did, as to how and why differential aileron control works.So, bear with me, and let's have a little fun with this on a cold February night!Yup, even here in Houston it's pretty cold yet... but I digress...Imagine if you can, that the control wires are only attached to the lower aileronhorns, and further, that the wires are in fact tiny diameter rigid wires, suchthat, if they were pulled or pushed, there would be neither slack nor stretch.(In our actual aileron controls, we want both of the lower horns to be identical,both of the top horns to be identical, and both the left hand an righthand stick horns to be identical.) Still with me? Great! Let's continue...Now, when the stick is moved to the left... the eye attached to this rigid cablemoves exactly 2.0 inches. Conversely, when the stick is moved to the right,the eye on the other side of the stick moves exactly 2.0 inches, as well. Ifthis weren't the case, there would a larger aileron angle on one side than theother, and we just don't want that. So, if the eye on the stick 'horn moves identically side to side, the aileron lowercontrol horns do as well. Are you beginning to see the point? Maybe not,so let's delve further into this...The upper aileron control horns are really along for the ride... in a sense, becausethey only balance the movement from one side to another. So, we ask, how are ailerons made to operate differentially? Simple, thru designgeometry of the control system, specifically the horns. Since the 'horn moves let us say, 2 in. fore, and 2 in. aft... the geometry ofthe horn is the only consideration needed to create differential control. Whatthe airframe designer does is determine how much displacement he can designinto the control system, and then adjust the horn angles and lengths to get thedisplacement and angular motion he desires.In the attachment, you'll see some angles, and some dimensions - these are lookingat the left hand aileron control horn from the cockpit. For the moment, forgetabout the top aileron horn, as, like I stated earlier, for our purpose,it's only along for the ride. The attachment will require a little thought tounderstand, but you'll get it quickly. Prior to moving the ailerons, the stickwill be in the neutral position, and accordingly, the line labeled N is wherethe centerline of the control horn eye will be located. When the stick ismove to the right, the cable will move - in this case - 1.95 inches, pullingthe aileron down. When the stick is moved to the left, that same displacementof 1.95 inches yields a larger angle, and that angle is determined solely bycontrol horn geometry. (The angle of 41.4 deg. from a line perpendicular to thebottom of the airfoil determines the angles shown for the equal displacementyielding 15 and 20 degrees of down and up aileron, respectively.)Back to the top control horn... Whether the horn is 3 in. from the instant center,or 3 ft, doesn't matter, as the other horn will be identical, and the twohorns will displace exactly the same distance. Like I said earlier, the top hornsonly create the balance needed in the system.Now for the bad news... the control geometry of the Piet does NOT provide the typeof differential control we want in an aircraft; the angles given in the LAAdocument of 15 deg. up and 20 deg. down appear to be correct per the Hoopmandrawings, and if you want proper differential controls, you will need to redesignyour control horns on your own. Perhaps these angles work well with theFC-10 airfoil; one can only guess, as there are dozens if not hundreds of Piet'sbeing flown with them, and they appear to be OK. There will be a small amount of cable geometry to be considered, but I thoughtit would be beyond the basics shown here. Shoot me comments, but DON'T SHOOT ME!--------Tom KreinerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/cont ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: elevator bellcrank
Original Posted By: Ken Bickers
I need some help here. According to the Hoopman plans, page 4, upper right hand corner the center of the elevator bellcrank is 9=9D from the lower longeron. This causes the upper elevator cables to drag on the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer. What will happen if I raise the center of the bellcrank up an inch or so? Have seen many at Brodhead that just glued a piece of leather to the top of the leading edge but was wondering if I could move it slightly to avoid the rubbing? Any ideas?Dennis________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:31:18 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: elevator bellcrank
I need some help here. According to the Hoopman plans, page 4, upper right hand corner the center of the elevator bellcrank is 9=9D from the lower longeron. This causes the upper elevator cables to drag on the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer. What will happen if I raise the center of the bellcrank up an inch or so? Have seen many at Brodhead that just glued a piece of leather to the top of the leading edge but was wondering if I could move it slightly to avoid the rubbing? Any ideas?Dennis________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:31:18 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: elevator bellcrank
Re: Pietenpol-List: elevator bellcrank
Original Posted By: "Chris"
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Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Original Posted By: John Woods
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Re: Pietenpol-List: elevator bellcrank
Original Posted By: "Jack Phillips"
Dennis,The Hoopman plans are correct. Do not change them. The top elevator cable is supposed to drag on the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer. That's one of the distinct and wonderful aspects about this design. One of the best days of my life was when I got to glue that patch of leather on the stab, in just the right place. In fact, I had been looking forward to it for years. In addition, to some on this list, instituting the change you suggest may preclude your airplane from being called a genuine Pietenpol. And, if memory serves, this is one of the specifically-listed disqualifiers, for consideration of the Spirit Award, at Brodhead. Dan HelsperPuryear, TN.cc. Top Curmudgeon P.S. Not to mention that leather patch acts as a fairing, adding at least one or two knots to cruising speed. (Ask me how I know) P.P.S. I hope you haven't made the aileron horns of the "slab" designOn Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 8:16 PM, Dennis Engelkenjohn wrote:I need some help here. According to the Hoopman plans, page 4, upper right hand corner the center of the elevator bellcrank is 9=9D from the lower longeron. This causes the upper elevator cables to drag on the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer. What will happen if I raise the center of the bellcrank up an inch or so? Have seen many at Brodhead that just glued a piece of leather to the top of the leading edge but was wondering if I could move it slightly to avoid the rubbing? Any ideas?Dennis________________________________________________________________________________
Dennis,The Hoopman plans are correct. Do not change them. The top elevator cable is supposed to drag on the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer. That's one of the distinct and wonderful aspects about this design. One of the best days of my life was when I got to glue that patch of leather on the stab, in just the right place. In fact, I had been looking forward to it for years. In addition, to some on this list, instituting the change you suggest may preclude your airplane from being called a genuine Pietenpol. And, if memory serves, this is one of the specifically-listed disqualifiers, for consideration of the Spirit Award, at Brodhead. Dan HelsperPuryear, TN.cc. Top Curmudgeon P.S. Not to mention that leather patch acts as a fairing, adding at least one or two knots to cruising speed. (Ask me how I know) P.P.S. I hope you haven't made the aileron horns of the "slab" designOn Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 8:16 PM, Dennis Engelkenjohn wrote:I need some help here. According to the Hoopman plans, page 4, upper right hand corner the center of the elevator bellcrank is 9=9D from the lower longeron. This causes the upper elevator cables to drag on the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer. What will happen if I raise the center of the bellcrank up an inch or so? Have seen many at Brodhead that just glued a piece of leather to the top of the leading edge but was wondering if I could move it slightly to avoid the rubbing? Any ideas?Dennis________________________________________________________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
The simple fact is, as designed the ailerons work acceptably well, as longas the gaps are sealed. There is adverse yaw (plenty of it) but that wascommon on planes designed in the 20's and 30's (ever flown a J-3 Cub?).That is why planes of that era tend to have large, powerful rudders.If you want a plane with perfectly balanced differential ailerons, build anRV4. I can do aileron rolls all day long in my RV4 without ever putting myfeet on the rudder pedals. But that's not what I want when I fly myPietenpol. It flies like what it is - a 1929 design.How does the RV4 do this? Its ailerons have a combination of differentialaction (the up side aileron travels further than the down side aileron) anda Frise type design, where the leading edge of the upgoing aileron extendsdown below the bottom surface of the wing which does two things - itprovides somewhat of an "air balance" relieving some of the stick forces andit adds drag on the wing opposite the down-going aileron, helping to balancethe drag evenly. A J-3 Cub also uses Frise type ailerons, but the designhad not been refined as well in 1938. It also helps that the RV4 has awingspan 6 feet less than the Pietenpol.I enjoy the way the Pietenpol flies. Build it per the plans and it will flyjust fine. Make changes to the design to "improve" it (and I'm guilty ofthis, as are most builders) and you may have an acceptable airplane but itprobably won't fly as well as the original design. Old Bernard knew what hewas doing.Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia-----Original Message-----
The simple fact is, as designed the ailerons work acceptably well, as longas the gaps are sealed. There is adverse yaw (plenty of it) but that wascommon on planes designed in the 20's and 30's (ever flown a J-3 Cub?).That is why planes of that era tend to have large, powerful rudders.If you want a plane with perfectly balanced differential ailerons, build anRV4. I can do aileron rolls all day long in my RV4 without ever putting myfeet on the rudder pedals. But that's not what I want when I fly myPietenpol. It flies like what it is - a 1929 design.How does the RV4 do this? Its ailerons have a combination of differentialaction (the up side aileron travels further than the down side aileron) anda Frise type design, where the leading edge of the upgoing aileron extendsdown below the bottom surface of the wing which does two things - itprovides somewhat of an "air balance" relieving some of the stick forces andit adds drag on the wing opposite the down-going aileron, helping to balancethe drag evenly. A J-3 Cub also uses Frise type ailerons, but the designhad not been refined as well in 1938. It also helps that the RV4 has awingspan 6 feet less than the Pietenpol.I enjoy the way the Pietenpol flies. Build it per the plans and it will flyjust fine. Make changes to the design to "improve" it (and I'm guilty ofthis, as are most builders) and you may have an acceptable airplane but itprobably won't fly as well as the original design. Old Bernard knew what hewas doing.Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Original Posted By: "tools"
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________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
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________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Jack T, Thanks for posting those images. I actually have seen them from your excellentweb site - a treasure trove!Chris,Thanks for the reply. I agree with you.Greg,I agree. Thanks for replying.--------Bob 'Early Builder' DewenterDayton OHRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Jack T, Thanks for posting those images. I actually have seen them from your excellentweb site - a treasure trove!Chris,Thanks for the reply. I agree with you.Greg,I agree. Thanks for replying.--------Bob 'Early Builder' DewenterDayton OHRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Pietenpol-List: Re: elevator bellcrank
Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
Okay, here's my (long-winded) take on the situation:1. The aileron horns are one piece (upper and lower), so if the lower horn rotates15 degrees, then so does the upper horn. And so does the aileron, for thatmatter.2. The movement of the ailerons is governed by the cables that are pulling onthem (you can't really push a cable). The pulling cables are connected to thelower horns. i.e. when the control stick is moved side-to-side, the cable thatdoes the work goes from the control stick aileron horn to one of the lower aileronhorns.3. The upper horns are directly linked to each other by a cable (and a coupleof pulleys), so a 15 degree downward rotation of the left aileron should resultin a 15 degree upward rotation of the right aileron *assuming that there isno slack in the connecting cable*.However, it is common practice to rig the ailerons on these aircraft (like manyother vintage aircraft) with the ailerons drooping slightly, when the plane issitting on the ground. The aerodynamic forces on the ailerons will cause theailerons to level out when in flight. As a result, there will be some slackintroduced to the cable connecting the upper horns - when in flight. And thisslack will result in a reduced rotation of the aileron upwards, as opposed tothe aileron that is being pulled downwards. Thus, the figures listed in theLAA document likely are correct, based on observed conditions.An alternate idea would be to rig the ailerons so that they sat with a slight upwarddeflection when at rest. This would effectively introduce a bit of washoutinto the wings, which is usually a good idea (so the the root of the wingstalls before the tips, allowing for some aileron control in a stall). However,some builders have noted that shortening the balance cable (between the twoupper horns) causes the cable system to bind slightly - which isn't a good thing.The short answer is that, ideally (i.e. with zero slack), if one aileron rotates20 degrees, the other one will also rotate the same 20 degrees.The aileron horns themselves are designed such that if the connection point (wherethe cable attaches) is moved a set distance - say 1 inch - the result (indegrees of rotation) will vary based on whether the cable is connected to theupper or lower horn. The 1 inch linear movement at the upper horn will resultin a greater rotation than the same 1 inch linear movement at the lower horn -because the upper horn connection point is closer to the pivot point (the hinge)than the lower horn connection point is. But the actual pull of cables isonly applied to the lower horn of one aileron (which is then transferred directlyfrom that aileron's upper horn to the other aileron's upper horn). So thereis no actual differential aileron control designed into the system.As Jack, and others have said, the system works. It's a vintage aircraft design,and it will perform like a vintage aircraft, with the accompanying amount ofadverse yaw. Luckily there is a rudder in the back to help compensate.Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: elevator bellcrank
Okay, here's my (long-winded) take on the situation:1. The aileron horns are one piece (upper and lower), so if the lower horn rotates15 degrees, then so does the upper horn. And so does the aileron, for thatmatter.2. The movement of the ailerons is governed by the cables that are pulling onthem (you can't really push a cable). The pulling cables are connected to thelower horns. i.e. when the control stick is moved side-to-side, the cable thatdoes the work goes from the control stick aileron horn to one of the lower aileronhorns.3. The upper horns are directly linked to each other by a cable (and a coupleof pulleys), so a 15 degree downward rotation of the left aileron should resultin a 15 degree upward rotation of the right aileron *assuming that there isno slack in the connecting cable*.However, it is common practice to rig the ailerons on these aircraft (like manyother vintage aircraft) with the ailerons drooping slightly, when the plane issitting on the ground. The aerodynamic forces on the ailerons will cause theailerons to level out when in flight. As a result, there will be some slackintroduced to the cable connecting the upper horns - when in flight. And thisslack will result in a reduced rotation of the aileron upwards, as opposed tothe aileron that is being pulled downwards. Thus, the figures listed in theLAA document likely are correct, based on observed conditions.An alternate idea would be to rig the ailerons so that they sat with a slight upwarddeflection when at rest. This would effectively introduce a bit of washoutinto the wings, which is usually a good idea (so the the root of the wingstalls before the tips, allowing for some aileron control in a stall). However,some builders have noted that shortening the balance cable (between the twoupper horns) causes the cable system to bind slightly - which isn't a good thing.The short answer is that, ideally (i.e. with zero slack), if one aileron rotates20 degrees, the other one will also rotate the same 20 degrees.The aileron horns themselves are designed such that if the connection point (wherethe cable attaches) is moved a set distance - say 1 inch - the result (indegrees of rotation) will vary based on whether the cable is connected to theupper or lower horn. The 1 inch linear movement at the upper horn will resultin a greater rotation than the same 1 inch linear movement at the lower horn -because the upper horn connection point is closer to the pivot point (the hinge)than the lower horn connection point is. But the actual pull of cables isonly applied to the lower horn of one aileron (which is then transferred directlyfrom that aileron's upper horn to the other aileron's upper horn). So thereis no actual differential aileron control designed into the system.As Jack, and others have said, the system works. It's a vintage aircraft design,and it will perform like a vintage aircraft, with the accompanying amount ofadverse yaw. Luckily there is a rudder in the back to help compensate.Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: elevator bellcrank
Pietenpol-List: Re: texas piet. flyin
Original Posted By: "papadave"
Couldn't agree more. Leather patch on the horizontal stabilizer identifies itas a Pietenpol!Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: texas piet. flyin
Couldn't agree more. Leather patch on the horizontal stabilizer identifies itas a Pietenpol!Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: texas piet. flyin
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Original Posted By: "jarheadpilot82"
I live in Elk City, OK just a bit north of you. I think a Pietenpol fly-in wouldbe awesome. I'm waiting for my plans to arrive this week and I hope to getstarted building this month. I know I won't be done by this spring but I'm sureI can scrounge up something else to fly down with.Late April, May, or early June would be best for me.--------DaveRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
I live in Elk City, OK just a bit north of you. I think a Pietenpol fly-in wouldbe awesome. I'm waiting for my plans to arrive this week and I hope to getstarted building this month. I know I won't be done by this spring but I'm sureI can scrounge up something else to fly down with.Late April, May, or early June would be best for me.--------DaveRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Original Posted By: John Franklin
Tools,John Denver, the singer died in the airplane. Bob Denver, aka "Gilligan" of Islandfame died of cancer in 2005.Small point not germane to the discussion but worth correcting nonetheless.Skipper --------Semper Fi,Terry HandAthens, GARead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:47:58 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Tools,John Denver, the singer died in the airplane. Bob Denver, aka "Gilligan" of Islandfame died of cancer in 2005.Small point not germane to the discussion but worth correcting nonetheless.Skipper --------Semper Fi,Terry HandAthens, GARead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:47:58 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
RE: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead 2014
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
The usual accomodation is a tentJack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia-----Original Message-----
The usual accomodation is a tentJack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia-----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead 2014
Original Posted By: Jack
And the Denver Broncos died during Super Bowl XLVIIISunday, February 2, 5:30 PMMetLife Stadium, East Rutherford, New Jersey--------Curt MerdanFlower Mound, TXRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead 2014
And the Denver Broncos died during Super Bowl XLVIIISunday, February 2, 5:30 PMMetLife Stadium, East Rutherford, New Jersey--------Curt MerdanFlower Mound, TXRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead 2014
Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead 2014
Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
John as Jack mentioned mostly tents and campers. There are hotels in town whichis about a mile from the airport. Make sure you watch the list for our bratfestFriday noon. Check the archives, lots of info there.Sent from my iPadJack Textor> On Feb 12, 2014, at 9:47 AM, John Franklin wrote:> > > With a bunch of airline miles, I was able to scam a free ride on Southwest Airlinesso naturally I chose Brodhead! Can you guys give me some info on overnightaccommodations? I emailed the EAA chapter up there but didn't get a response.> > Thanks,> John Franklin> GN-1 / Corvair 164cid> Prairie Aire 4TA0> Needville, TX> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead 2014
John as Jack mentioned mostly tents and campers. There are hotels in town whichis about a mile from the airport. Make sure you watch the list for our bratfestFriday noon. Check the archives, lots of info there.Sent from my iPadJack Textor> On Feb 12, 2014, at 9:47 AM, John Franklin wrote:> > > With a bunch of airline miles, I was able to scam a free ride on Southwest Airlinesso naturally I chose Brodhead! Can you guys give me some info on overnightaccommodations? I emailed the EAA chapter up there but didn't get a response.> > Thanks,> John Franklin> GN-1 / Corvair 164cid> Prairie Aire 4TA0> Needville, TX> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead 2014
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Original Posted By: "tools"
The BEST accommodations are tent! You just can't get the full experience withouttenting it. You just can't beat listening to other snorers, howling coyotes,and 8 hour lightening storms! :-)Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
The BEST accommodations are tent! You just can't get the full experience withouttenting it. You just can't beat listening to other snorers, howling coyotes,and 8 hour lightening storms! :-)Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead 2014
Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
Oh ya... that's what I meant!Thanks!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 12:09:39 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead 2014
Oh ya... that's what I meant!Thanks!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 12:09:39 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead 2014
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead 2014
Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
Dang! Ryan Meuller! I had that nightmare just about erased from my memory.What year was the "howitzer shot"?Dan HelsperPuryear, TN.And don't forget about the drone from the nearby irrigation center-pivot sprayers all night long.....Fsssssst! Fssssst! Fssssst!.............-----Original Message-----
Dang! Ryan Meuller! I had that nightmare just about erased from my memory.What year was the "howitzer shot"?Dan HelsperPuryear, TN.And don't forget about the drone from the nearby irrigation center-pivot sprayers all night long.....Fsssssst! Fssssst! Fssssst!.............-----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead 2014
Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead 2014
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead 2014
Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead 2014
Original Posted By: "Dennis Engelkenjohn"
I believe is was 2010 as well. I fortunately was in my camper but still jumpedwhen it struck. I thought for sure the next sound I was going to hear was sirensheading to the tent area!--------John FrancisRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
I believe is was 2010 as well. I fortunately was in my camper but still jumpedwhen it struck. I thought for sure the next sound I was going to hear was sirensheading to the tent area!--------John FrancisRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead 2014
Original Posted By: Don Emch
Hey! I resemble that remark!dennis-----Original Message-----
Hey! I resemble that remark!dennis-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Original Posted By: "Douwe Blumberg"
I, too, am amazed by the Pietenpol in the air. On the ground, I can sit in thecockpit and stir the stick and waggle the rudders and things creak, squeak, anddrag noticeably. Flops flop, controls just sit there unless I encourage themvigorously, and gravity seems to overpower the poor airplane on the ground.Nothing is silky-smooth and there is resistance in all the controls.However, the instant the airplane gains flying speed, things are all different.To me, in flight the Air Camper's controls are light and responsive and I donot detect any drag or resistance that doesn't feel like it's part of the airplane'snormal operation. The most exhilarating flights I have ever made havebeen on a summer afternoon, solo, with half a tank of fuel in the Pietenpol AirCamper. It is the essence of stick and rudder flying and if you are used tocontrolling the airplane in all three axes, this airplane will please you. At least it does me.I should add that my airplane has full-span aileron hinges so the gaps are sealed,and I have never flown another Air Camper besides Scout so I have nothingagainst which to compare it except for Cubs, Super Cubs, Citabrias, and the like.I may have measured the travel angles on Scout's ailerons up and down, butI don't remember what they are. Maybe I'll measure them this weekend when I'mat the hangar, just for the heck of it.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
I, too, am amazed by the Pietenpol in the air. On the ground, I can sit in thecockpit and stir the stick and waggle the rudders and things creak, squeak, anddrag noticeably. Flops flop, controls just sit there unless I encourage themvigorously, and gravity seems to overpower the poor airplane on the ground.Nothing is silky-smooth and there is resistance in all the controls.However, the instant the airplane gains flying speed, things are all different.To me, in flight the Air Camper's controls are light and responsive and I donot detect any drag or resistance that doesn't feel like it's part of the airplane'snormal operation. The most exhilarating flights I have ever made havebeen on a summer afternoon, solo, with half a tank of fuel in the Pietenpol AirCamper. It is the essence of stick and rudder flying and if you are used tocontrolling the airplane in all three axes, this airplane will please you. At least it does me.I should add that my airplane has full-span aileron hinges so the gaps are sealed,and I have never flown another Air Camper besides Scout so I have nothingagainst which to compare it except for Cubs, Super Cubs, Citabrias, and the like.I may have measured the travel angles on Scout's ailerons up and down, butI don't remember what they are. Maybe I'll measure them this weekend when I'mat the hangar, just for the heck of it.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead 2014
Original Posted By: "Luke W."
The "Howitzer shot" was 2010. Marci and I were in our tent and I was sureit hit right next to us, it was absolutely CRAZY!!I too love the feel of the controls in the air, and they are built to plans.I honestly can hold the stick between two fingers and that is all the powerit takes most of the time, truly delightful.I think it's great to play around with changes, and there are a few thingsthat can actually be "improved" a bit. Just be aware that the plane fliesgreat as designed and every "change" or "improvement" made adds time to thebuild, which increases the odds that you'll run out of poop and quit theproject. I say keep the build process as slimmed down as possible, it'salready a monumental job to finish one.Hope I remember how to fly when this weather breaks!! Dang!!!Douwe________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead 2014
The "Howitzer shot" was 2010. Marci and I were in our tent and I was sureit hit right next to us, it was absolutely CRAZY!!I too love the feel of the controls in the air, and they are built to plans.I honestly can hold the stick between two fingers and that is all the powerit takes most of the time, truly delightful.I think it's great to play around with changes, and there are a few thingsthat can actually be "improved" a bit. Just be aware that the plane fliesgreat as designed and every "change" or "improvement" made adds time to thebuild, which increases the odds that you'll run out of poop and quit theproject. I say keep the build process as slimmed down as possible, it'salready a monumental job to finish one.Hope I remember how to fly when this weather breaks!! Dang!!!Douwe________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead 2014
Original Posted By: Michael Weston
> "...it=99s already a monumental job to finish one..."Not to mention finishing one twice! Douwe, you are legendary (as well as a couple others)...a living example of perseverance!GaryNX308MBSent from my iPhone> On Feb 13, 2014, at 7:35 AM, "Douwe Blumberg" wrote:> > The =9CHowitzer shot=9D was 2010. Marci and I were in our tent and I was sure it hit right next to us, it was absolutely CRAZY!!> > I too love the feel of the controls in the air, and they are built to plans. I honestly can hold the stick between two fingers and that is all the power it takes most of the time, truly delightful.> > I think it=99s great to play around with changes, and there are a few things that can actually be =9Cimproved=9D a bit. Just be aware that the plane flies great as designed and every =9Cchange=9D or =9Cimprovement=9D made adds time to the build, which increases the odds that you=99ll run out of poop and quit the project. I say keep the build process as slimmed down as possible, it=99s already a monumental job to finish one.> > Hope I remember how to fly when this weather breaks!! Dang!!!> > Douwe> > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> ________________________________________________________________________________
> "...it=99s already a monumental job to finish one..."Not to mention finishing one twice! Douwe, you are legendary (as well as a couple others)...a living example of perseverance!GaryNX308MBSent from my iPhone> On Feb 13, 2014, at 7:35 AM, "Douwe Blumberg" wrote:> > The =9CHowitzer shot=9D was 2010. Marci and I were in our tent and I was sure it hit right next to us, it was absolutely CRAZY!!> > I too love the feel of the controls in the air, and they are built to plans. I honestly can hold the stick between two fingers and that is all the power it takes most of the time, truly delightful.> > I think it=99s great to play around with changes, and there are a few things that can actually be =9Cimproved=9D a bit. Just be aware that the plane flies great as designed and every =9Cchange=9D or =9Cimprovement=9D made adds time to the build, which increases the odds that you=99ll run out of poop and quit the project. I say keep the build process as slimmed down as possible, it=99s already a monumental job to finish one.> > Hope I remember how to fly when this weather breaks!! Dang!!!> > Douwe> > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> ________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: controls and howitzer shots
Original Posted By: Gary Boothe
That was a night! My 8 yr. old daughter was sleeping next to me and all I did wasworry about her all night. The next morning I asked how she did and all shecould say was "what storm", she sleep right thru it. We had the Hatz there andI opened the lower inspections plates and let out 10 gallons of water from thelower wings,even with the drain holes open. Memories!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: controls and howitzer shots
That was a night! My 8 yr. old daughter was sleeping next to me and all I did wasworry about her all night. The next morning I asked how she did and all shecould say was "what storm", she sleep right thru it. We had the Hatz there andI opened the lower inspections plates and let out 10 gallons of water from thelower wings,even with the drain holes open. Memories!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: controls and howitzer shots
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Original Posted By: "womenfly2"
Pretty sure Glider and Flying Manual says to make them tight enough that nothingmoves or goes slack when you pick up the tail out by the connect point on thestab. That's how I put mine back on.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Pretty sure Glider and Flying Manual says to make them tight enough that nothingmoves or goes slack when you pick up the tail out by the connect point on thestab. That's how I put mine back on.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
Original Posted By: "Mild Bill"
John asked->Is it legal to communicate (VHF aircraft frequencies) with>a hand-held radio from the ground to an aircraft? Is it legal>to communicate from one hand-held aircraft radio on the ground>to another hand-held radio on the ground?I wondered the same thing myself, some years ago while doing just that. My understandingof the use of aircraft radios without the old radiotelephone operator'slicense is that the aircraft radios (and, by extension, their operator) arenow permitted to be operated under a blanket approval under the CFRs, on theair band frequencies assigned for each purpose. Ground vehicles and stationsare also permitted to operate on those frequencies and you hear them talkingto Ground all the time (fuel trucks, airport maintenance vehicles, etc.). However,I don't think it's generally legal to conduct the types of operations thatyou ask about. BUT-!!! Check out this excellent website that summarizesthe approved uses for each of the air band frequencies:http://www.jneuhaus.com/fccindex/aviation.html Look at the frequencies 123.125-123.575, which are for flight test stations. Click on the letter "J" to view the applicable Subpart that covers the use of those frequencies. It looks like a license must be applied for to use that frequency, but it's an option. Also look at 121.95, 123.3, and 123.5... "aviation support stations for pilot training" and other such functions.I have always used 122.75, the frequency for private aircraft air-to-air communications,and have not had anyone tell me not to use it for test flight communicationsand the like. My guess is if you're not using it for chat and BS, theworst that could happen is somebody could caution you not to use it. I am NOT an expert in this matter AT ALL, although I do have one of those old RROPsand I was once a Novice class amateur radio operator (WN5ODE).--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down
John asked->Is it legal to communicate (VHF aircraft frequencies) with>a hand-held radio from the ground to an aircraft? Is it legal>to communicate from one hand-held aircraft radio on the ground>to another hand-held radio on the ground?I wondered the same thing myself, some years ago while doing just that. My understandingof the use of aircraft radios without the old radiotelephone operator'slicense is that the aircraft radios (and, by extension, their operator) arenow permitted to be operated under a blanket approval under the CFRs, on theair band frequencies assigned for each purpose. Ground vehicles and stationsare also permitted to operate on those frequencies and you hear them talkingto Ground all the time (fuel trucks, airport maintenance vehicles, etc.). However,I don't think it's generally legal to conduct the types of operations thatyou ask about. BUT-!!! Check out this excellent website that summarizesthe approved uses for each of the air band frequencies:http://www.jneuhaus.com/fccindex/aviation.html Look at the frequencies 123.125-123.575, which are for flight test stations. Click on the letter "J" to view the applicable Subpart that covers the use of those frequencies. It looks like a license must be applied for to use that frequency, but it's an option. Also look at 121.95, 123.3, and 123.5... "aviation support stations for pilot training" and other such functions.I have always used 122.75, the frequency for private aircraft air-to-air communications,and have not had anyone tell me not to use it for test flight communicationsand the like. My guess is if you're not using it for chat and BS, theworst that could happen is somebody could caution you not to use it. I am NOT an expert in this matter AT ALL, although I do have one of those old RROPsand I was once a Novice class amateur radio operator (WN5ODE).--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down