Pietenpol-List: Vasek's Pietenpol project

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Original Posted By: larharris2 Harris
Hello,Recently I decided to build a Pietenpol, but before I start, I would like to askyou and discuss the possibilities I have. I am in the Czech Republic (centraleurope).I am a young amateur aircraft technician, pilot, producer of historic aircraftpropellers and still a student. But mainly, I am a big fan of aviation. At the moment I have an engine (VW 2500 85hp) and metal-tube construction of thefuselage + tail surfaces available. My plan is to build a beautiful airplane,which will look very similar to the original aircraft from twenties/thirties.My friend is a skilled aircraft builder and constructor, who guaranties me thatthe aircraft will be safe, will fly and will provide me all information concerningthe construction. The engine I propose is available for a quite fair price, so I would like to useit. I think that 85hp would be enough? I also have 150cm (60") wooden prop,which might be a bit small, but later I could exchange it. The engine doesn'tneed any reduction drive.I am light weight, the aircraft will have no electric starter. -10kgWhat I am also planning to do is to choose a better modern wing profile. OriginalyI thought that Clark Y would be the best option, but also ribblet GA30U-613.5was recommended to me.Could I ask you for help, comments or advices, please?Thank you VaclavRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

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Original Posted By:> bigon2(at)seznam.cz
Vaclav=2C welcome. You will enjoy building the Pietenpol.Advice: DO NOT redesign the wing. Bernard Pietenpol designed the best wing for this airplane. In the past=2C changes have made performance worse.DO NOT use VW engine. RPM must be too high to get HP. Propeller will be too small. Bad performance on takeoff=2C or bad performance while in the air.Follow the plans design as well as you can and you will build a very good plane.Lorenzo> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Vasek's Pietenpol project

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Original Posted By: Ken Bickers
John, Jack-I certainly have a safety wire tool, yes. What I have found is that in many placesit's not real easy to spin the tool or even to get a proper grasp of thewire, and of course it does you no good on turnbuckles. I mostly work the wireby hand.I was just sounding off a little because I had more than the usual amount of safetyingto do over the weekend and since I take baby aspirin as part of a bloodthinning regimen with the hypertension meds that I take, when I get a cut orpuncture it just makes a bit of a mess for awhile till I get the blood stopped.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:04:44 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: safety wire

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Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Hi Vaclav,Welcome to the wonderful world of Pietenpols!You have already been given some good advice. Bernard Pietenpol himselfexperimented with the Clark Y and found it did not perform as well as hisairfoil. Recently a number of Pietenpols have been built with some of the Riblettairfoils. Tests comparing the Riblett to the Pietenpol airfoil on twonearly identical airplanes showed the Riblett offered no significantadvantage over the original Pietenpol airfoil. Besides, the originalairfoil, with its sharp leading edge and undercamber looks more like a1920's airplane, and you have stated that one of your goals is to " build abeautiful airplane, which will look very similar to the original aircraftfrom twenties/thirties."As for the engine, a number of people have tried Volkswagen engines in thePietenpol without success. The Pietenpol is a slow, draggy airplane andneeds an engine that puts out a lot of torque. As I'm writing this I seethat Bill Church has just responded with a good explanation of why a VW isnot a good engine choice for this airplane.How about a LOM Mikro? Those should be relatively plentiful in the CzechRepublic.Anyway, good luck to you. If possible, you should try to come to Brodheadand Oshkosh some summer to see as many Pietenpols as possible. They are alldifferent, but each can teach you something.Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia-----Original Message-----

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Original Posted By: "aviken"
Fastest Piet I ever saw was Vandervoort's, which was powered by theoriginal-style, Bernard Pietenpol version of a Corvair version. Didn'tseem to have any problem getting Vandervoort up into the blue, either, andhe was not tiny.--Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD, FARVOAssociate Professor of OphthalmologyEmory University School of MedicineOn 2/24/14 7:27 PM, "taildrags" wrote:>>Paul;>>I can only relate my own experience, and here it is. I left a fly-in on>a nice mild sunny afternoon in Texas, field elevation maybe 600'MSL. I>was not at gross, maybe half fuel, but two aboard. My airplane has a>fresh A75. We were just about leveled off at our cruise altitude of>maybe 2500-3000' headed home when out of nowhere from behind us comes>"Axel" Purtee in his Corvair-powered Piet, also two aboard, and formed up>on our wing for photos. Mind you, we had about a 10 minute head start>and he had caught up with us. After the photos he firewalled it and>walked away. His "Fat Bottomed Girl" weighed more than my airplane. The>Corvair is a very competent engine for the Air Camper.>>-------->Oscar Zuniga>Medford, OR>Air Camper NX41CC "Scout">A75 power>>>Read this topic online here:>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use ofthe intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privilegedinformation. If the reader of this message is not the intendedrecipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distributionor copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictlyprohibited.If you have received this message in error, please contactthe sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of theoriginal message (including attachments).________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Vasek's Pietenpol project

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Original Posted By: "Braniff1966"
First Trans Atlantic flight in a Pietenpol, Ha Ha I know now that you will bea true Pietenpol builder, because you need a good sense of humor. I hope youhave as much fun as I am in building this great little bird.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: safety wire

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Original Posted By: "Vasek"
The very cool thing about a Pietenpol (or any experimental homebuilt in the US FAR's) is that you can use ANY engine you wantbut dollar for dollar, headache-for-headache, you are going to spend just as much money, if not more in time and repair costs downthe road trying to make these other engines as cost-effective and as reliable as a standard old rebuilt A-65 non-electric Continental engine.The Model A engine is way cool and many have made it reliable and powerful. The other engine choices have more power sometimes thana Continental but can come with an array of stuff you simply don't need on a Continental like starters, batteries, alternators, voltage regulators,starter ring gears, belt drives, reduction drives, ignition coils, wiring harnesses, fuses, circuit breakers, switches, and don't promise a longlife necessarily. Don't get me wrong, I believe we ALL have the right to chose whatever engine we want but....and hear me out on this one....but if you want a simple, reliable, reasonably priced engine that will not complicate or extend your build time or 'rebuild' time the Continentalis the best, dollar for dollar, passenger ride after passenger ride.Mike C.________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Vasek's Pietenpol project

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Original Posted By: "tools"
I don't know why but I am still wondering about the VW 2.5 litre with 85hp. However,I am not going to buy it, I will wait till the fuselage and wing are finishedand then I will decide according to what will be available.This is my imagination:(Modified photo of G-BUCO - I like the cowling)+there will be the leather belts over the cowling made of metal and wind-shieldswill be made out of three flat parts.--------My production of WW1 propellers, trophies and constructions:Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/vase ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: thoughts about using a good old fashioned Continentalnon-el

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Original Posted By: Steven Dortch
Dan; yes, it really is just a "My turn now... watch this!" type of comparison betweenPiets, and it doesn't generate any useful data. I've moved on and won'tbother with it.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 14:21:46 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Vasek's Pietenpol project

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Original Posted By: Keith
Interesting. Could I know what engine it exactly is and its specifications?One guy who lives nearby has BMW from a motorcycle available, but I thought itwould be to weak.Let me know, this is interesting![quote="steven.d.dortch(at)gmail."]Just curious, Anyone used s BMW motorcycle engine?Steve DOn Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 3:16 PM, Vasek wrote:> > > Thank you for your advices Jack and Lorenzo.> > I already changed my mind with the VW engine, after I got a clear> explanation about the torque, and after reading the Bill Church's article--------My production of WW1 propellers, trophies and constructions:Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 21:03:31 +0000

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Original Posted By: Steven Dortch
Looks great. What's it weigh any idea of expected fuel cunsumption?Sent from my iPhone> On Feb 25, 2014, at 12:41 PM, Keith wrote:> > Yes,> > I am just nearing the end of my build using a BMW K100LT engine, fitted with a Rotax "C" gearbox with a ratio of 3 to 1.> > It has the original fuel injection and electronic ignition and seems to be OK. It gave 2250 Prop RPM when fitted with a 72" by 46", I am now waiting for the winter rains and winds to go away so that I can fit the new 72" by 42" prop which I hope will give me 2550 RPM.> > Attached is a photograph of the engine installation.> > Hoping for an engineering inspection in May.> > Keith Hodge> > > > >> On 25/02/2014 20:21, Steven Dortch wrote:>> Just curious, Anyone used s BMW motorcycle engine? >> >> Steve D>> >> >> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 3:16 PM, Vasek wrote:>>> >>> Thank you for your advices Jack and Lorenzo.>>> >>> I already changed my mind with the VW engine, after I got a clear explanation about the torque, and after reading the Bill Church's article. It would result in many complications which do not worth it..>>> >>> There might be some Microns available here, I will see.>>> >>> Another option is now another automobile engine with a reduction drive. I could use a Suzuki engine. I will see. Now I can build the aircraft and watch for offers in shops, used engines.>>> >>> I will use the original Pietenpol airfoil.>>> >>> As for the meeting in Brodhead/Oshkosh, you want me to try the first trans-atlantic flight with a Pietenpol? >>> >>> -------->>> My production of WW1 propellers, trophies and constructions:>>> =88=BC>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here:>>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 261#419261>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ==========>>> br> -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>>> ==========>>> MS ->>> k">http://forums.matronics.com>>> ==========>>> e ->>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.>>> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution>>> ==========> > ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 15:27:55 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Vasek's Pietenpol project

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Original Posted By: JOSEPH SWITHIN

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Original Posted By: "TOM STINEMETZE"

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Original Posted By: "Vasek"
Steve,Just don't shoot me if I have the same books on my shelf, study them, and thencome up with a different solution.Aviation technology as well as the world around us is constantly evolving. Andyou have to tailor your build to those old technologies that are still relevantcoupled with new. For example, the Bingelis books give techniques for buildingboth a fiberglass fuel tank (comparatively "new school") as well as an aluminumone ("old school" in comparison to fiberglass). I, personally, have no intentionof building a fuel tank or system that can be severely damaged by ethanolfuels. Your chances of getting ethanol in your fuel system are pretty goodmoving forward, whether intentional or unintentional. So old school (aluminum)is the better choice in my opinion. But would you rather use casein glue orT88? "New school" is better, obviously. But if you read Flying and Glider Magazineand took its every word as Gospel, then you might have some issues. Filteringtechniques from a previous time with the capabilities and technology of todayis all I think that William, or Bob, or any other writers are suggesting.My penny and a half.--------Semper Fi,Terry HandAthens, GARead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Vasek's Pietenpol project

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Original Posted By: "William Wynne"
Hello,I am sending you two photos I made today.It is welded fuselage, tail surfaces, fuel tank, I am working on the control systemsnow. [Wink]Vasek--------My production of WW1 propellers, trophies and constructions:Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/trup ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bingilis books

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Original Posted By: "taildrags"
One more thing on the tank.... As Mike's uncle Tony says you'll want to make surethe lowest point in the tank has the sump to avoid the collection of waterand to make sure it'll get drained out. Ideally you want a low point that islow whether in the three point or in level to cover all your bases. Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Vasek's Pietenpol project

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Original Posted By: Steven Dortch
Vasek; nice work on the Aircamper fuselage!--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 15:46:33 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bingilis books

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Original Posted By: Steven Dortch
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Vasek's Pietenpol project

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Original Posted By: "Vasek"
Great advice Don. I have the low point in there along with accomodation for aCurtiss drain. Looking forward to doing the install and the flow test. Thanksfor the feedback.Scott Sent from my iPhone> On Mar 19, 2014, at 1:11 PM, "Don Emch" wrote:> > > One more thing on the tank.... As Mike's uncle Tony says you'll want to makesure the lowest point in the tank has the sump to avoid the collection of waterand to make sure it'll get drained out. Ideally you want a low point that islow whether in the three point or in level to cover all your bases. > > Don Emch> NX899DE> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 638#420638> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Vasek's Pietenpol project

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Original Posted By: "Gary Boothe"
> Your sound system is not big enough! Otherwise my work would not have a rhythm [Wink] > Looks like the front fuselage is already stretched for a lightweight engine.Is that true? I am using GN-1 plans, but it doesn't seem to be longer, you think it is?Concerning the ribs, I will use the original Pietenpol's.And thank you for your nice words, I am going for a beer!!--------My production of WW1 propellers, trophies and constructions:Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

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Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
There's a guy who knows how to enjoy his project!!Vasek - Your props are beautiful!Gary BootheNX308MB-----Original Message-----

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Original Posted By: "Vasek"
Don,I share your respect for the Cole family. Grace keeps all their books togetheron a single shelf. I have no talent for aerobatics, but Grace is skilled and nevergets queasy in planes. Typing the phrase "rolling outside turn" makes mystomach jumpy and my equilibrium wavy. The first time Grace tried it with herinstructor was in an S2B, they worked on it for 10 minutes solid, I could hardlywatch, she thought it was "fun."One of the unusual Cole books Grace has is "Airport Memories." It has notes andphotos of the 1,400 airports Duane flew in and out of in his life. It is filledwith great pictures of places some there, some gone. It has pictures of ourinstructor, Chuck Nelson, as a much younger man, hanging out with the Coles.Grace showed the book to Chuck after she bought it at a fly-mart. He had neverseen a copy. He isn't a real nostalgic guy, but he did pause and look at thepictures for a long time without saying anything. The memories appeared tocome back in a flood.-------------------------------Books on flight that changed my perspective and made me think differently;On the human condition: Fate is the Hunter, Gannhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fate_Is_the_Hunter on engineering: Slide rule, Nevil Shutehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slide_Rule:_Autobiography_of_an_Engineeron WWI: Sagittarius Rising, Cecil Lewis (Doc loaned me this)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Arthur_LewisOn human creativity and ethics: Boyd, Robert Coramhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boyd_(military_strategist)-------------------------------------------------------If I had to pick a single book who's contents I treasure and have improved my skillsimmeasurably, it is the 70 year old classic, Stick and Rudder. by WolfgangLangewiesche.I wrote an article about it last year, contrasting it with modern books on flyingby authors like Rod Machado. The story below also contains a visual test soeveryone can see how many historic characters out of eight, they can identify.Yes, I am aware that comparing Machado to Langewiesche is like comparing DrOz to Walter Reed, but it makes a point.Click on this link: http://flycorvair.net/2013/05/25/greate ... th-16/Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Vasek's Pietenpol project

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Original Posted By: "Gary Boothe"
Recently I had a guy here who wanted to take a look, and when he came I told him"this is going to be a replica of S.E.5a" ..and he believed ..it really lookslike S.E.5a :)I am now wondering about length of the landing gear - the V on the side - how longit should be. Currently it has about 70cm, but I found out that this lengthis designed for Piper wheels. I am going to use wire wheels. So I am worriedthat I will have to make the V on both sides again, shorter.What do you think? Can anyone with wire wheels (on airplane please ) measurethe length of the front tube (on the V, which connects the wheel with sidesof fuselage).Thank you!--------My production of WW1 propellers, trophies and constructions:Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

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Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Vasek,You can do this yourself! Estimate the height of the tail with the tailwheel arrangement that you will have. Prop up the tail to that point. Next, raise the front on sawhorses and blocks until you attain a suitable 'deck angle' ( the angle of the upper longerons, measured over level ground). I started with 13=81=B0, but fle that was too much. I=99m now at 11=81=B0 and much more comfortable. Once the deck angle is set, you can see if the wheels you have will work, or know which size wheels to look foror rework your gear.Gary BootheNX308MB-----Original Message-----

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Original Posted By: "aerocarjake"
Ck out "Flight of Passage". Great "coming of age" adventure book about twokids flying a cub across America in the sixties. Very fun.Douwe________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: books

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Original Posted By: "jarheadpilot82"
Don't forget the water bag.....--------Jake Schultz - curator,Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Vasek's Pietenpol project

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Original Posted By: Michael Perez
Vasek,Your steel tube fuselage looks great!I have attached a link to a previous posting I made showing my steel tube fuselagewith the door option for the front seat-http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... highlightI would love to say that I designed it, but I did not. However, the highly capableWilliam Wynne did. You might want to look at the tubes he added to reinforcethe fuselage and see if you might need similar reinforcement.--------Semper Fi,Terry HandAthens, GARead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 08:43:42 -0700 (PDT)

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Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
For what it=99s worth, my Pietenpol has a 13=C2=B0 deck angle and I wish I had a bit less =93 maybe 12=C2=B0. The problem with 13=C2=B0 is, the wing is nearly fully stalled in the 3-point position, which means you=99ve got to be very accurate in timing your flare on landing. The Pietenpol at such an AOA has so much drag that the time between when you get it to the 3-point position (13=C2=B0) and when it stalls is very short (feels like a second or less. If you flare a bit high, it will stall and =9Cdrop in=9D. A shallower deck angle allows you to flare it slightly high and let it float down to the runway as it bleeds off speed.Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____

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Original Posted By: Michael Perez
Michael=2C I have your set of videos=2C but I am watching them on pace with my construction progress. I haven't gotten to the part about landing gear yet if you discuss some of the location questions. This thread has explored setting the height of the gear. But have you any insight into the fore/aft location of the axle relative to the airplane CG? I have asked this question here before & gotten some good opinions. Any new thoughts?LorenzoI setup my gear more or less as Gary describes. Position the plane with it sitting on its tail wheel=2C raise the nose until you achieve your desired deck angle=2C fit/locate main landing gear. Michael Perez =0A=0A=0A============0A============0A============0A============0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 10:08:01 -0700 (PDT)

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Original Posted By: Lawrence Williams

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Original Posted By: Lawrence Williams

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Original Posted By: "Vasek"
Hi Chris,I would think that shimming the horizontal stabilizer might change your fin/rudder/tailpost hinge line... to the point of not fitting or causing a bind. Iwould really consider twisting the horizontal stabilizer. You could twist theleading edge down with the wires. It would probably surprise you how much youcould twist it and how much of an effect it might have. That stabilizer hasa lot of area. I really think Mr. Pietenpol designed the stabilizer like he didso that he could tweak it to adjust the trim as needed. Mr. Pietenpol's simplegenius strikes again!Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Vasek's Pietenpol project

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Original Posted By: "taildrags"
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com> > > Hello=2C> > Recently I decided to build a Pietenpol=2C but before I start=2C I would like to ask you and discuss the possibilities I have. I am in the Czech Republic (central europe).> > I am a young amateur aircraft technician=2C pilot=2C producer of historic aircraft propellers and still a student. But mainly=2C I am a big fan of aviation. > > At the moment I have an engine (VW 2500 85hp) and metal-tube construction of the fuselage + tail surfaces available. My plan is to build a beautiful airplane=2C which will look very similar to the original aircraft from twenties/thirties. My friend is a skilled aircraft builder and constructor=2C who guaranties me that the aircraft will be safe=2C will fly and will provide me all information concerning the construction. > > The engine I propose is available for a quite fair price=2C so I would like to use it. I think that 85hp would be enough? I also have 150cm (60") wooden prop=2C which might be a bit small=2C but later I could exchange it. The engine doesn't need any reduction drive.> > I am light weight=2C the aircraft will have no electric starter. -10kg> > What I am also planning to do is to choose a better modern wing profile. Originaly I thought that Clark Y would be the best option=2C but also ribblet GA30U-613.5 was recommended to me.> > Could I ask you for help=2C comments or advices=2C please?> > Thank you > > Vaclav> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 246#419246> > > > > > > ============================================> > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: safety wire