Original Posted By: Ken Bickers
Wow, you are a Super Pieter! That's what makes this group so special. I would certainlyorder a set, but my "stuff" came with an Original Set from Vi! Great to have you doing this for us.Ray KrauseBuilding SkyScoutSent from my iPad> On Oct 13, 2014, at 9:23 PM, taildrags wrote:> > > Hello, Pieters;> > I wanted to report that I have just received a new run of aluminum castings forthe Kapler hinges and will soon begin finishing and fabricating them. I haveenough castings to produce at least 20 sets (9 pairs) of hinges, so there shouldbe enough to last for a good while. I will post to the list when I havesome sets finished and available to ship out. I do not yet have the final billfrom the foundry, so I can't state a price just yet but will also post thatwhen I know.> > These parts carry no STC, PMA, guarantee, or any other approval from anyone orany agency. They are for experimental, home-built aircraft.> > These parts are individually inspected by me and are hand-finished and hand-madefrom aluminum castings from a foundry here in the U.S. using hand tools andsimple jigs that Vi made by hand many years ago, so no two pairs of hinges willbe alike and no dimensional tolerances will be provided. When I have a coupleof sets completed from this run, I will measure them using ordinary shopinstruments and will post the dimensions to this list. I will also proof-testa random representative pair of hinges on the bench to failure and will postthe test results to this list. I may also replace the hinges on my own planewith a set from this run so that I can flight-test them myself, and then re-bushmy old set so I'll know how to properly use the re-bushing tools that Vi providedalong with the other tools and jigging.> > I do not know which casting alloy the foundry uses to make these parts but Imay be able to deduce that by calculating back to the material tensile strengthafter I run the test to determine the load at failure. I will post that informationto this list once I have it in hand.> > These parts are essentially exact replacements for the ones that Vi made andsold for many years, so they should fit in existing tail surfaces with all holesmatching.> > I will offer refund of purchase price, or exchange for another pair, if a buyerfinds that the parts that they receive are not to their satisfaction afterreceiving and inspecting them.> > Thanks.> > --------> Oscar Zuniga> Medford, OR> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"> A75 power> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 827#431827> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 09:23:55 -0400Subject: Pietenpol-List: Placards and Markings
Pietenpol-List: Placards and Markings
Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
I dont remember how I decided but remember what you choose can always be changed. My long fuse A65 Piet is not happy above 80 to 85 mph if you want a starting pointSent from my iPhone> On Oct 14, 2014, at 9:23 AM, Ken Bickers wrote:> > Folks, I could use some advice. I'm working on the placards and markings. One on which I haven't found guidance is how to estimate or determine Vno, which is the top of the green arc and bottom of the yellow arc on the airspeed indicator. Anyone know how this is calculated? Cheers, Ken> > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings
I dont remember how I decided but remember what you choose can always be changed. My long fuse A65 Piet is not happy above 80 to 85 mph if you want a starting pointSent from my iPhone> On Oct 14, 2014, at 9:23 AM, Ken Bickers wrote:> > Folks, I could use some advice. I'm working on the placards and markings. One on which I haven't found guidance is how to estimate or determine Vno, which is the top of the green arc and bottom of the yellow arc on the airspeed indicator. Anyone know how this is calculated? Cheers, Ken> > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings
Original Posted By: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]"
Ken;This one is a bit tricky, but for your evening mental exercise, here's some infothat I snagged directly off the web. I would be interested in what you comeup with computationally.For part 23 airplanes that are not turbine powered and VD has not been established,23.1505(b) establishes VNO must be established such that it is between VC,minand 0.89*VNE. Section 23.335 defines VC as a multiplying factor of the squareroot of wing loading at design maximum takeoff weight. For normal and utilitycategory airplanes, VC is design cruising speed and is be between 33 (W/S)and 0.9 VH where W/S is wing loading at the design maximum takeoff weight. Thefactor 33 may be scaled as low as 28.6 based on W/S values greater than 20(the regs do not provide units on any of these numbers...). VH is the maximumforward airpseed in level flight at maximum continuous power at sea level. Section 23.335 also defines VA and the only relation to VC is that VA need notexceed VC.We can see from this information that establishing VNO is a design choice basedultimately upon maximum possible wing loading as a guideline and unlike VA stallspeeds are not involved in the calculation.What you can take from this is that VA will vary by weight (because this affectsthe stall speed) but VNO is based upon wing loading at max gross takeoff weightand is constant with actual weight.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Ken;This one is a bit tricky, but for your evening mental exercise, here's some infothat I snagged directly off the web. I would be interested in what you comeup with computationally.For part 23 airplanes that are not turbine powered and VD has not been established,23.1505(b) establishes VNO must be established such that it is between VC,minand 0.89*VNE. Section 23.335 defines VC as a multiplying factor of the squareroot of wing loading at design maximum takeoff weight. For normal and utilitycategory airplanes, VC is design cruising speed and is be between 33 (W/S)and 0.9 VH where W/S is wing loading at the design maximum takeoff weight. Thefactor 33 may be scaled as low as 28.6 based on W/S values greater than 20(the regs do not provide units on any of these numbers...). VH is the maximumforward airpseed in level flight at maximum continuous power at sea level. Section 23.335 also defines VA and the only relation to VC is that VA need notexceed VC.We can see from this information that establishing VNO is a design choice basedultimately upon maximum possible wing loading as a guideline and unlike VA stallspeeds are not involved in the calculation.What you can take from this is that VA will vary by weight (because this affectsthe stall speed) but VNO is based upon wing loading at max gross takeoff weightand is constant with actual weight.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: airspeed markings
Original Posted By: Steven Dortch
Ken-I took the very scientific approach and marked mine similarly to the Aeronca Champ I usedto fly with the photo below to illustrate.Truthfully, in flying practice, I have dove for speed for long, swooping, barn door wingovers and about 90 is about all thefaster I would ever want to get in my Piet. It talks to you.....you'll know.To do it over again I would make the yellow arc from 80 to 95 and redline it at 95.Totally unscientific but there you have it. Your inspector probably won't give a rip anyway and if he does you can alwaysmove your colors around.Mike C.Ohio[cid:image001.jpg(at)01CFE7B4.E02F4EC0]________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 14:28:38 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: airspeed markings
Ken-I took the very scientific approach and marked mine similarly to the Aeronca Champ I usedto fly with the photo below to illustrate.Truthfully, in flying practice, I have dove for speed for long, swooping, barn door wingovers and about 90 is about all thefaster I would ever want to get in my Piet. It talks to you.....you'll know.To do it over again I would make the yellow arc from 80 to 95 and redline it at 95.Totally unscientific but there you have it. Your inspector probably won't give a rip anyway and if he does you can alwaysmove your colors around.Mike C.Ohio[cid:image001.jpg(at)01CFE7B4.E02F4EC0]________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 14:28:38 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: airspeed markings
Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Oscar, thanks. This is helpful. I don't have a good read on Vc. Estimating basedon (W/S) is straightforward. Plus with some reasonable guesses about Vc, I shouldbe able to make a preliminary stab at it from that angle too. Cheers, Ken> On Oct 14, 2014, at 11:37 AM, taildrags wrote:> > > Ken;> > This one is a bit tricky, but for your evening mental exercise, here's some infothat I snagged directly off the web. I would be interested in what you comeup with computationally.> > For part 23 airplanes that are not turbine powered and VD has not been established,23.1505(b) establishes VNO must be established such that it is betweenVC,min and 0.89*VNE. Section 23.335 defines VC as a multiplying factor of thesquare root of wing loading at design maximum takeoff weight. For normal and utilitycategory airplanes, VC is design cruising speed and is be between 33 (W/S)and 0.9 VH where W/S is wing loading at the design maximum takeoff weight.The factor 33 may be scaled as low as 28.6 based on W/S values greater than 20(the regs do not provide units on any of these numbers...). VH is the maximumforward airpseed in level flight at maximum continuous power at sea level. > > Section 23.335 also defines VA and the only relation to VC is that VA need notexceed VC.> > We can see from this information that establishing VNO is a design choice basedultimately upon maximum possible wing loading as a guideline and unlike VAstall speeds are not involved in the calculation.> > What you can take from this is that VA will vary by weight (because this affectsthe stall speed) but VNO is based upon wing loading at max gross takeoff weightand is constant with actual weight.> > --------> Oscar Zuniga> Medford, OR> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"> A75 power> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 845#431845> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings
Oscar, thanks. This is helpful. I don't have a good read on Vc. Estimating basedon (W/S) is straightforward. Plus with some reasonable guesses about Vc, I shouldbe able to make a preliminary stab at it from that angle too. Cheers, Ken> On Oct 14, 2014, at 11:37 AM, taildrags wrote:> > > Ken;> > This one is a bit tricky, but for your evening mental exercise, here's some infothat I snagged directly off the web. I would be interested in what you comeup with computationally.> > For part 23 airplanes that are not turbine powered and VD has not been established,23.1505(b) establishes VNO must be established such that it is betweenVC,min and 0.89*VNE. Section 23.335 defines VC as a multiplying factor of thesquare root of wing loading at design maximum takeoff weight. For normal and utilitycategory airplanes, VC is design cruising speed and is be between 33 (W/S)and 0.9 VH where W/S is wing loading at the design maximum takeoff weight.The factor 33 may be scaled as low as 28.6 based on W/S values greater than 20(the regs do not provide units on any of these numbers...). VH is the maximumforward airpseed in level flight at maximum continuous power at sea level. > > Section 23.335 also defines VA and the only relation to VC is that VA need notexceed VC.> > We can see from this information that establishing VNO is a design choice basedultimately upon maximum possible wing loading as a guideline and unlike VAstall speeds are not involved in the calculation.> > What you can take from this is that VA will vary by weight (because this affectsthe stall speed) but VNO is based upon wing loading at max gross takeoff weightand is constant with actual weight.> > --------> Oscar Zuniga> Medford, OR> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"> A75 power> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 845#431845> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings
Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Ken;I've run through the formulae using the specifications for the Air Camper as postedon the Pietenpol family website, and they end up not making sense. For example,calculating the wing loading using those specifications gives W/S = 1080/140= 7.71, so 33 times the square root of 7.71 comes out with a design cruisespeed Vc of 91.6 MPH and I don't think there are many Piets that cruise atthat speed. You're going to have to just come up with your own markings andranges.I'll look at my ASI next time I'm at the hangar, but I seem to recall the bottomof the green arc being somewhere around 28-30 (the Pietenpol family websiteshows 'landing speed' as 35, which sounds about right). I believe my redlineVne is at 95 MPH. My airplane cruises best at around 70 MPH so I would expectthe top of the green to be at around 75-80 but I'll have to look at it.None of the other conventional formulae seem to work for Air Campers either. Forexample, the conventional formula (rule of thumb) for design dive speed isthat Vd = 1.4 * Vc, where Vc is determined using the 33 times the square rootof the wing loading. That would put the design dive speed for an Air Camper at128 MPH!!! Going from there, the conventional Vne would be 0.9 times the divespeed, or 115 MPH. I don't know of anyone who has redlined their Air Camperthat high, but there may be some out there. My airplane feels very jitteryand uncomfortable if I get it above 90-95, which I have done a couple of times.The Corvair Piets like Kevin Purtee's and Gary Boothe's may provide data on higherairspeeds than the Ford and Continental powered planes, since they do cruisefaster and may have higher airspeed ranges than others.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings
Ken;I've run through the formulae using the specifications for the Air Camper as postedon the Pietenpol family website, and they end up not making sense. For example,calculating the wing loading using those specifications gives W/S = 1080/140= 7.71, so 33 times the square root of 7.71 comes out with a design cruisespeed Vc of 91.6 MPH and I don't think there are many Piets that cruise atthat speed. You're going to have to just come up with your own markings andranges.I'll look at my ASI next time I'm at the hangar, but I seem to recall the bottomof the green arc being somewhere around 28-30 (the Pietenpol family websiteshows 'landing speed' as 35, which sounds about right). I believe my redlineVne is at 95 MPH. My airplane cruises best at around 70 MPH so I would expectthe top of the green to be at around 75-80 but I'll have to look at it.None of the other conventional formulae seem to work for Air Campers either. Forexample, the conventional formula (rule of thumb) for design dive speed isthat Vd = 1.4 * Vc, where Vc is determined using the 33 times the square rootof the wing loading. That would put the design dive speed for an Air Camper at128 MPH!!! Going from there, the conventional Vne would be 0.9 times the divespeed, or 115 MPH. I don't know of anyone who has redlined their Air Camperthat high, but there may be some out there. My airplane feels very jitteryand uncomfortable if I get it above 90-95, which I have done a couple of times.The Corvair Piets like Kevin Purtee's and Gary Boothe's may provide data on higherairspeeds than the Ford and Continental powered planes, since they do cruisefaster and may have higher airspeed ranges than others.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings
Original Posted By: Gary Boothe
Ken;By the way, you didn't mention any questions about placards but you're sure tostart a lively discussion by asking about the "passenger warning" placard. Myairplane and others do not have the "EXPERIMENTAL" letters by the cockpit entry,under the exception in the FARs that covers aircraft bearing the "NX..." registrationmarkings. This is covered in 14 CFR 14.22 and 23. If the registrationmarkings do not include the X between the N and the registration numbers,then the "EXPERIMENTAL" marking is required near the cockpit entry.My aircraft is placarded "REAR SEAT SOLO ONLY" in the front cockpit since the aircraftcannot be operated within its limitations solo from the front seat. Thereis no front seat solo loading configuration that will keep the CG withinthe allowable range for the aircraft.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings
Ken;By the way, you didn't mention any questions about placards but you're sure tostart a lively discussion by asking about the "passenger warning" placard. Myairplane and others do not have the "EXPERIMENTAL" letters by the cockpit entry,under the exception in the FARs that covers aircraft bearing the "NX..." registrationmarkings. This is covered in 14 CFR 14.22 and 23. If the registrationmarkings do not include the X between the N and the registration numbers,then the "EXPERIMENTAL" marking is required near the cockpit entry.My aircraft is placarded "REAR SEAT SOLO ONLY" in the front cockpit since the aircraftcannot be operated within its limitations solo from the front seat. Thereis no front seat solo loading configuration that will keep the CG withinthe allowable range for the aircraft.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings
Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
FWIW, my FAA inspector could care less about the "NX" on my N-number. He only wantedto see the word "EXPERIMENTAL" somewhere on the foreword panel.GaryNX308MBSent from my iPhone> On Oct 14, 2014, at 8:10 PM, taildrags wrote:> > > Ken;> > By the way, you didn't mention any questions about placards but you're sure tostart a lively discussion by asking about the "passenger warning" placard. My airplane and others do not have the "EXPERIMENTAL" letters by the cockpit entry,under the exception in the FARs that covers aircraft bearing the "NX..."registration markings. This is covered in 14 CFR 14.22 and 23. If the registrationmarkings do not include the X between the N and the registration numbers,then the "EXPERIMENTAL" marking is required near the cockpit entry.> > My aircraft is placarded "REAR SEAT SOLO ONLY" in the front cockpit since theaircraft cannot be operated within its limitations solo from the front seat.There is no front seat solo loading configuration that will keep the CG withinthe allowable range for the aircraft.> > --------> Oscar Zuniga> Medford, OR> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"> A75 power> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 891#431891> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings
FWIW, my FAA inspector could care less about the "NX" on my N-number. He only wantedto see the word "EXPERIMENTAL" somewhere on the foreword panel.GaryNX308MBSent from my iPhone> On Oct 14, 2014, at 8:10 PM, taildrags wrote:> > > Ken;> > By the way, you didn't mention any questions about placards but you're sure tostart a lively discussion by asking about the "passenger warning" placard. My airplane and others do not have the "EXPERIMENTAL" letters by the cockpit entry,under the exception in the FARs that covers aircraft bearing the "NX..."registration markings. This is covered in 14 CFR 14.22 and 23. If the registrationmarkings do not include the X between the N and the registration numbers,then the "EXPERIMENTAL" marking is required near the cockpit entry.> > My aircraft is placarded "REAR SEAT SOLO ONLY" in the front cockpit since theaircraft cannot be operated within its limitations solo from the front seat.There is no front seat solo loading configuration that will keep the CG withinthe allowable range for the aircraft.> > --------> Oscar Zuniga> Medford, OR> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"> A75 power> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 891#431891> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings
Original Posted By: "Jack Phillips"
Gary: I would have stenciled the word "LATNEMIREPXE" in nice 2" letters clearlyand permanently on the *backside* of the forward instrument panel to satisfythe inspector. Clearly visible using a hand-held inspection mirror that you providethe passenger ;o)--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Gary: I would have stenciled the word "LATNEMIREPXE" in nice 2" letters clearlyand permanently on the *backside* of the forward instrument panel to satisfythe inspector. Clearly visible using a hand-held inspection mirror that you providethe passenger ;o)--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Before I called the local FSDO to come out to do the airwirthinessinspection on my Pietenpol, I printed out the applicable FARs and had themready. When he balked at the missing EXPERIMENTAL label, I just handed himthe regs, along with a picture of the Rudolph Pietenpol (the regs don'trequire EXPERIMENTAL if the NX is applied in the numbers and the design hasbeen flying for at leat 30 years. Since the Rudolph Piet has been flyingsince 1934 that was part of the qualification.).He signed it off with no further questions.Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia-----Original Message-----
Before I called the local FSDO to come out to do the airwirthinessinspection on my Pietenpol, I printed out the applicable FARs and had themready. When he balked at the missing EXPERIMENTAL label, I just handed himthe regs, along with a picture of the Rudolph Pietenpol (the regs don'trequire EXPERIMENTAL if the NX is applied in the numbers and the design hasbeen flying for at leat 30 years. Since the Rudolph Piet has been flyingsince 1934 that was part of the qualification.).He signed it off with no further questions.Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Beauty!--------riegerpietenpol.tumblr.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings
Beauty!--------riegerpietenpol.tumblr.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings