Original Posted By: "Andy Garrett"
I'm in St. Joseph, MN. That's 75 miles NE of the twin cities. I have 13 ribs madeso far, but not complete.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: BRS in a Piet?
Pietenpol-List: BRS in a Piet?
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Log time listener first time caller
Original Posted By: Steven Dortch
Surprisingly, I find no discussions on this subject with a search.Anyone install a ballistic chute on their Piet? Heard of it done? The center section of the wing seems like a descent place to engineer such an installation.Just a curiosity. I am aware that there are those who believe that 'real pilots'don't use BRS, so I'm prepared for some ridicule--hit me.--------Andy Garrett'General Purpose Creative Dude'Haysville, KansasRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:19:22 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Log time listener first time caller
Surprisingly, I find no discussions on this subject with a search.Anyone install a ballistic chute on their Piet? Heard of it done? The center section of the wing seems like a descent place to engineer such an installation.Just a curiosity. I am aware that there are those who believe that 'real pilots'don't use BRS, so I'm prepared for some ridicule--hit me.--------Andy Garrett'General Purpose Creative Dude'Haysville, KansasRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:19:22 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Log time listener first time caller
RE: Pietenpol-List: BRS in a Piet?
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
No ridicule - just reality. By the time you get a BRS that can safelydescend a fully loaded Pietenpol you will have added 30 lbs or more andinvested over $5,000 (roughly increasing the cost of your airplane by 33%)for something you hope to never use.A Pietenpol lands so slowly and uses so little real estate that I wouldrather take my chances flying the plane down "as far into the crash aspossible" as Mr. Hoover says, than trusting that a totally non-steerableparachute won't deposit me into power lines or trees.I've had a forced landing in my Pietenpol. I was able to fly it over thelake and forest where the engine failure occurred and make it to the onlyopen space, US Highway 64 west of Raleigh, NC, in the area and land it onthe highway after passing over one set of power lines and under another. Idoubt if the parachute could have done as well and I would have ended up inthe trees (or the powerlines)Not a stupid question, but you've got to look at all the angles.Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia-----Original Message-----
No ridicule - just reality. By the time you get a BRS that can safelydescend a fully loaded Pietenpol you will have added 30 lbs or more andinvested over $5,000 (roughly increasing the cost of your airplane by 33%)for something you hope to never use.A Pietenpol lands so slowly and uses so little real estate that I wouldrather take my chances flying the plane down "as far into the crash aspossible" as Mr. Hoover says, than trusting that a totally non-steerableparachute won't deposit me into power lines or trees.I've had a forced landing in my Pietenpol. I was able to fly it over thelake and forest where the engine failure occurred and make it to the onlyopen space, US Highway 64 west of Raleigh, NC, in the area and land it onthe highway after passing over one set of power lines and under another. Idoubt if the parachute could have done as well and I would have ended up inthe trees (or the powerlines)Not a stupid question, but you've got to look at all the angles.Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia-----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet?
Original Posted By: Ray Krause
For the information of the newer members of the List, the archives actually go back to 1996. The current Forum http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=7 was started in 2006, and if you execute a search from the Forum, it will only find results from 2006 onwards.However, if you use the old search function http://www.matronics.com/search/ you will get results that are pulled from the very beginning.Performing a search of the Pietenpol List Archives for "BRS", using the old searchengine resulted in finding discussions on the matter from January 1999, April2004 and February 2005. The search also produced a lot of unrelated messagesthat you will have to weed through.Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet?
For the information of the newer members of the List, the archives actually go back to 1996. The current Forum http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=7 was started in 2006, and if you execute a search from the Forum, it will only find results from 2006 onwards.However, if you use the old search function http://www.matronics.com/search/ you will get results that are pulled from the very beginning.Performing a search of the Pietenpol List Archives for "BRS", using the old searchengine resulted in finding discussions on the matter from January 1999, April2004 and February 2005. The search also produced a lot of unrelated messagesthat you will have to weed through.Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet?
Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet?
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
I was standing there in camouflaged coveralls and I can confirm how cold it was.I think we can nickname Kevin Iron man.--------Building steel fuselage aircamper.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet?
I was standing there in camouflaged coveralls and I can confirm how cold it was.I think we can nickname Kevin Iron man.--------Building steel fuselage aircamper.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet?
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet?
Original Posted By: Steven Dortch
Hello good friends and fellow Pieters.My project is finish and inspected. I had my first flight yesterday, what a thrill. Of course there are a few things to address. The most important one is the engine overheat problem. I have overhauled a Model A and it runs great. I have about 10 hours on the engine running it on the ground. I have overhauled and modified the oil pump, drilled the crankshaft for better oiling of the mains and rod bearings (it has bearings not babitts), had the crank balanced, installed stainless valves and seats, and it has a Winfield high compression head. I=99m running a Texas T water pump and have a Forrest Lovely radiator. Hopefully I have covered the installation. At idle or even up to about 1300 RPM=99s the temp remains around 170-190F. At open throttle and after a few minutes the temp climbs to 210-215 and boils over. After 3 trips around the field yesterday it was 220F. Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated.jack________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 13:05:03 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet?
Hello good friends and fellow Pieters.My project is finish and inspected. I had my first flight yesterday, what a thrill. Of course there are a few things to address. The most important one is the engine overheat problem. I have overhauled a Model A and it runs great. I have about 10 hours on the engine running it on the ground. I have overhauled and modified the oil pump, drilled the crankshaft for better oiling of the mains and rod bearings (it has bearings not babitts), had the crank balanced, installed stainless valves and seats, and it has a Winfield high compression head. I=99m running a Texas T water pump and have a Forrest Lovely radiator. Hopefully I have covered the installation. At idle or even up to about 1300 RPM=99s the temp remains around 170-190F. At open throttle and after a few minutes the temp climbs to 210-215 and boils over. After 3 trips around the field yesterday it was 220F. Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated.jack________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 13:05:03 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet?
RE: Pietenpol-List: Model A Engine overheat
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Check the timing and/or the flow of coolant thru the system.Bary
Check the timing and/or the flow of coolant thru the system.Bary
Re: Pietenpol-List: BRS in a Piet?
Original Posted By: Steve Ruse
Your plane is beautiful. Now that I have that out of the way. I am not that familiarwith the Model A installation. But I am wondering if you have a thermostator even a flow restrictor like a flat washer or something of the sorts. It sounds to me like the water isn't staying in the radiator long enough to cool.If you have an inferred thermometer you can check the temperature differentialbetween the lower radiator hose and the upper hose. The hot water shouldleave the bottom of the engine and the cool water should leave the top of theradiator and back into the engine. On the Diesel equipment that I design welook for 30 degree differential between the lower and upper hoses. One otherthing to look at is to make sure the water pump is turning the proper direction.I hope this gives you some kind of starting point to work with. Good luck, oh and again. You have a beautiful looking airplane.Cheers,--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 15:09:06 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: BRS in a Piet?
Your plane is beautiful. Now that I have that out of the way. I am not that familiarwith the Model A installation. But I am wondering if you have a thermostator even a flow restrictor like a flat washer or something of the sorts. It sounds to me like the water isn't staying in the radiator long enough to cool.If you have an inferred thermometer you can check the temperature differentialbetween the lower radiator hose and the upper hose. The hot water shouldleave the bottom of the engine and the cool water should leave the top of theradiator and back into the engine. On the Diesel equipment that I design welook for 30 degree differential between the lower and upper hoses. One otherthing to look at is to make sure the water pump is turning the proper direction.I hope this gives you some kind of starting point to work with. Good luck, oh and again. You have a beautiful looking airplane.Cheers,--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 15:09:06 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: BRS in a Piet?
Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet?
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Model A Engine overheatdo you have a pressure relief radiator cap or is it direct vent.Jeff martinIn a message dated 3/18/2015 2:02:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, fastnaught(at)windstream.net writes:Hello good friends and fellow Pieters. My project is finish and inspected. I had my first flight yesterday, whata thrill. Of course there are a few things to address. The most important one is the engine overheat problem. I have overhauled a Model A and it runs great. I have about 10 hours on the engine running iton the ground. I have overhauled and modified the oil pump, drilled thecrankshaft for better oiling of the mains and rod bearings (it has bearings not babitts), had the crank balanced, installed stainless valves and seats, and it has a Winfield high compression head. I=99m running a Texas T water pump and have a Forrest Lovely radiator. Hopefully I have covered the installation. At idle or even up to about 1300 RPM=99s the temp remains around 170-190F. At open throttle and after a few minutes the temp climbs to 210-215 and boils over. After 3 trips around the field yesterday it was 220F. Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated.jack________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet?
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Model A Engine overheatdo you have a pressure relief radiator cap or is it direct vent.Jeff martinIn a message dated 3/18/2015 2:02:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, fastnaught(at)windstream.net writes:Hello good friends and fellow Pieters. My project is finish and inspected. I had my first flight yesterday, whata thrill. Of course there are a few things to address. The most important one is the engine overheat problem. I have overhauled a Model A and it runs great. I have about 10 hours on the engine running iton the ground. I have overhauled and modified the oil pump, drilled thecrankshaft for better oiling of the mains and rod bearings (it has bearings not babitts), had the crank balanced, installed stainless valves and seats, and it has a Winfield high compression head. I=99m running a Texas T water pump and have a Forrest Lovely radiator. Hopefully I have covered the installation. At idle or even up to about 1300 RPM=99s the temp remains around 170-190F. At open throttle and after a few minutes the temp climbs to 210-215 and boils over. After 3 trips around the field yesterday it was 220F. Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated.jack________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet?
Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet?
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
The older system was called Norman. :)But seriously, Steve, did you actually read the posts?All of the links posted are from Matronics. The List server was and is Matronics,since 1998 or so. In 2006, the new interface was introduced, called the Forum.The old interface has continued to operate, in conjunction with the newerinterface. The content is the same - just a slightly different format.Bill C.> The current list server is Matronics. what was the older system called?> > > Steve D Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet?
The older system was called Norman. :)But seriously, Steve, did you actually read the posts?All of the links posted are from Matronics. The List server was and is Matronics,since 1998 or so. In 2006, the new interface was introduced, called the Forum.The old interface has continued to operate, in conjunction with the newerinterface. The content is the same - just a slightly different format.Bill C.> The current list server is Matronics. what was the older system called?> > > Steve D Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet?
Re: Pietenpol-List: BRS in a Piet?
Original Posted By: Steven Dortch
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: BRS in a Piet?
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: BRS in a Piet?
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet?
Original Posted By: Steven Dortch
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet?
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet?
Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet?
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Thanks, Bill.RaySent from my iPad> On Mar 18, 2015, at 5:45 AM, Bill Church wrote:> > > Ray,> > My assumption is that the newer Forum Interface can only access the messagesthat have been posted since the time that it became operational (almost 9 yearsago). Adding all of the previous archives would likely require someone takingthe time to (manually?) add all of the archived posts. I sure wouldn't wantto be saddled with that task.> In any case, the old archived materials are all available, just through a differentformat. Here's the link to the old information page for the PietenpolList, with various links to access the archived information.> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator/?Pietenpol-List> Of course, all of this information is provided in the message at the very topof the Forum page (Official Pietenpol-List FAQ). It just isn't explicitly statedthat the newer Forum can only access messages that have been posted afterApril 2006. > > Bill C.> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 505#439505> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet?
Thanks, Bill.RaySent from my iPad> On Mar 18, 2015, at 5:45 AM, Bill Church wrote:> > > Ray,> > My assumption is that the newer Forum Interface can only access the messagesthat have been posted since the time that it became operational (almost 9 yearsago). Adding all of the previous archives would likely require someone takingthe time to (manually?) add all of the archived posts. I sure wouldn't wantto be saddled with that task.> In any case, the old archived materials are all available, just through a differentformat. Here's the link to the old information page for the PietenpolList, with various links to access the archived information.> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator/?Pietenpol-List> Of course, all of this information is provided in the message at the very topof the Forum page (Official Pietenpol-List FAQ). It just isn't explicitly statedthat the newer Forum can only access messages that have been posted afterApril 2006. > > Bill C.> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 505#439505> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet?
Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study
Original Posted By: "William Wynne"
Thanks for the great responses gang!When I bought my Airbike it had one installed, but that is a lighter aircraft (light-sport,but can be built as an ultralight). They are common on those airframes,and cheaper since they are smaller canopies. That big red handle alwaysgave me a warm and fuzzy.>From a look of the accident reports, none were caused by catastrophic structurefailure, and most were far too close to the ground for a chute to be of use.As far as I'm concerned, this idea is 'put to bed'.--------Andy Garrett'General Purpose Creative Dude'Haysville, KansasRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study
Thanks for the great responses gang!When I bought my Airbike it had one installed, but that is a lighter aircraft (light-sport,but can be built as an ultralight). They are common on those airframes,and cheaper since they are smaller canopies. That big red handle alwaysgave me a warm and fuzzy.>From a look of the accident reports, none were caused by catastrophic structurefailure, and most were far too close to the ground for a chute to be of use.As far as I'm concerned, this idea is 'put to bed'.--------Andy Garrett'General Purpose Creative Dude'Haysville, KansasRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study
Original Posted By: Steven Dortch
Ben,Corvairs built to our basic layout have been insurable by the EAA's recommendedcompany, Falcon Insurance since 2004. There was a brief period in 2007 wherethey regrouped and required conversion companies like us to submit documentationon what we do. We passed this with flying colors, and today the insurance ratefor a Corvair is the same as an O-200. In the past, Falcon has had high ratesfor conventional gear planes, and student pilots, and pilots over 75. Mostof this has changed.If you would like to see a photo of me meeting with the VP and lead Tech for Falcon insurance at Oshkosh 2004, it is above 5 photos down at this link: http://www.flycorvair.com/osh2004.html There are also a number of Brodhead 2004 photos there, including one of Doc, Mike Cuy and Alex Sloan. Some nice shots from the air. -ww.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 12:33:38 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study
Ben,Corvairs built to our basic layout have been insurable by the EAA's recommendedcompany, Falcon Insurance since 2004. There was a brief period in 2007 wherethey regrouped and required conversion companies like us to submit documentationon what we do. We passed this with flying colors, and today the insurance ratefor a Corvair is the same as an O-200. In the past, Falcon has had high ratesfor conventional gear planes, and student pilots, and pilots over 75. Mostof this has changed.If you would like to see a photo of me meeting with the VP and lead Tech for Falcon insurance at Oshkosh 2004, it is above 5 photos down at this link: http://www.flycorvair.com/osh2004.html There are also a number of Brodhead 2004 photos there, including one of Doc, Mike Cuy and Alex Sloan. Some nice shots from the air. -ww.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 12:33:38 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study
Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study
Original Posted By: "K5YAC"
I want to thank everyone for taking the time to compose some great responses. Iwill offer closure with the following:I'm a process driven guy. I want to know why a thing is being done before I committo it. I am not one to jump on the bandwagon for the latest and greatest.That's one of the reasons I gravitated toward the Corvair--it was proven. To readthat sometime in the late 90s and early 2000s cranks starting breaking inlow and slow planes at a rate which required attention by those leading the Corvaireffort, is disturbing, but I accept it. I also accept the 5th bearing solutioneven given the small sample to base a conclusion on.As for having already made up my mind to not use the bearing..., absolutely not.In fact, the inverse is probably more true. I tend to lean toward safest approachfirst. To be honest, I was hoping someone would make me feel ok about goingthe route that builders did for so many decades. Thanks for nothin' guys!lol.The purpose of this discussion was to vet the concept publicly from a skepticalpoint of view. My hope was that respondents would make great efforts to convinceme--and so you have. Again, I am process driven, and I am a born skeptic.This method worked for me here, and I'm sure it will work again later, the nexttime I take issue with, status quo.William Wynne wants me to understand these engines, and now I am one step closer.Thank you all so much. I will build with the 5th bearing. You may have just savedmy butt! [Laughing]--------Andy Garrett'General Purpose Creative Dude'Haysville, KansasRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study
I want to thank everyone for taking the time to compose some great responses. Iwill offer closure with the following:I'm a process driven guy. I want to know why a thing is being done before I committo it. I am not one to jump on the bandwagon for the latest and greatest.That's one of the reasons I gravitated toward the Corvair--it was proven. To readthat sometime in the late 90s and early 2000s cranks starting breaking inlow and slow planes at a rate which required attention by those leading the Corvaireffort, is disturbing, but I accept it. I also accept the 5th bearing solutioneven given the small sample to base a conclusion on.As for having already made up my mind to not use the bearing..., absolutely not.In fact, the inverse is probably more true. I tend to lean toward safest approachfirst. To be honest, I was hoping someone would make me feel ok about goingthe route that builders did for so many decades. Thanks for nothin' guys!lol.The purpose of this discussion was to vet the concept publicly from a skepticalpoint of view. My hope was that respondents would make great efforts to convinceme--and so you have. Again, I am process driven, and I am a born skeptic.This method worked for me here, and I'm sure it will work again later, the nexttime I take issue with, status quo.William Wynne wants me to understand these engines, and now I am one step closer.Thank you all so much. I will build with the 5th bearing. You may have just savedmy butt! [Laughing]--------Andy Garrett'General Purpose Creative Dude'Haysville, KansasRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study
Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study
Original Posted By: "AircamperN11MS"
Here is a heavier wet blanket... I passed $12k a couple of years ago and I'm STILLnot done. Don't care though... this stuff is just too much fun. Andy... do the 5th bearing. Contrary to what others may say, it doesn't requireyou to lose your shirt, figuratively or literally. Oh, howdy everybody!
--------Mark ChouinardAll framed up... working on rigging.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study
Here is a heavier wet blanket... I passed $12k a couple of years ago and I'm STILLnot done. Don't care though... this stuff is just too much fun. Andy... do the 5th bearing. Contrary to what others may say, it doesn't requireyou to lose your shirt, figuratively or literally. Oh, howdy everybody!
--------Mark ChouinardAll framed up... working on rigging.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of studyPietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study
Original Posted By: "Andy Garrett"
This whole thread is why I love this list. A lot of people learn a lot of usefulthings by the experiences of others and we all get a better chance of survivingthis thing called life. Keep it up guys, we're all doing good things here. Happy Landings--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study
This whole thread is why I love this list. A lot of people learn a lot of usefulthings by the experiences of others and we all get a better chance of survivingthis thing called life. Keep it up guys, we're all doing good things here. Happy Landings--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study
Pietenpol-List: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
Original Posted By: "Andy Garrett"
I agree, this has been a good thread. Very illuminating.As for total cost..., don't care. Still to this day, I have no idea how much Ispent building my boat. That wasn't the point then and it isn't now. Yes, I haveto be very aware of keeping expenditures down to what I 'need' as I don't havea lot of money, but total cost in dollars after completing the build willpale in comparison to total the feeling of accomplishment.If I just wanted a plane, I'd buy another one. I want to 'create'.Thanks again everybody!--------Andy Garrett'General Purpose Creative Dude'Haysville, KansasRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
I agree, this has been a good thread. Very illuminating.As for total cost..., don't care. Still to this day, I have no idea how much Ispent building my boat. That wasn't the point then and it isn't now. Yes, I haveto be very aware of keeping expenditures down to what I 'need' as I don't havea lot of money, but total cost in dollars after completing the build willpale in comparison to total the feeling of accomplishment.If I just wanted a plane, I'd buy another one. I want to 'create'.Thanks again everybody!--------Andy Garrett'General Purpose Creative Dude'Haysville, KansasRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
Pietenpol-List: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
Original Posted By: "William Wynne"
Mr Wynne, I think I may often be misunderstood as I attempt wrap my head aroundall of this.I explained my method of raising the issue on the original thread. I will do soagain here.I was always inclined to go with the 5th bearing, but given the relatively shortperiod of time that its been around as compared to the decades that the Corvairhas been building a reputation as a good flight engine (when properly converted),I thought it best to approach the debate from the skeptic's point of view--thereseems to be a story there that the raw data could help tell. Yes, Iwas maybe hoping that the debate would be a bit more evenly divided to make itat least a realistic option, but that it was not speaks volumes. In this way,through this discussion, thought was provoked, I have learned, opinions weredeveloped, and the forum did exactly what is here to do. I could not be happierwith the exchange or more grateful for the knowledge received.The BRS discussion was similar, but since I had never heard of one being installedon a Piet, a simpler probe was adequate.Please don't think me reckless or foolish. I just have certain 'devices' I useto ferret out the information and passionate opinions that I seek. Yes, I wasundecided, and yes, money is and will always be a concern, but in the end, I willtypically make the appropriate choice. I just have to 'get there' intellectually,ya know? Even if I suspect something is a bad idea, I will still wantto know all the reasons why--proper vetting--covering all bases. Additionally,verbalizing the facts and opinions herein may help others later as well as weadd to the volume of researchable material.I am still not convinced that I have 5 or 6 years to save for the part in questionas Gary suggests. I am actively searching for engines and got your DVD inthe mail yesterday (Thanks!). When motivated, I can do a great deal very quickly,especially when I know what I'm doing. That is the 'know' that you and otherare sharing with me now.Given my type of tact (or complete lack there of), you may despise me when we meet(especially after all of these questions). Someone told me of a possible CCin Mexico, MO this year. If that materializes, I look forward to shaking yourhand and absorbing as much as you are willing to share. You and many others.Just wait until we get to the 'controls' questions later. [Rolling Eyes] Be patient with me gentlemen. I do like it here.--------Andy Garrett'General Purpose Creative Dude'Haysville, KansasRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
Mr Wynne, I think I may often be misunderstood as I attempt wrap my head aroundall of this.I explained my method of raising the issue on the original thread. I will do soagain here.I was always inclined to go with the 5th bearing, but given the relatively shortperiod of time that its been around as compared to the decades that the Corvairhas been building a reputation as a good flight engine (when properly converted),I thought it best to approach the debate from the skeptic's point of view--thereseems to be a story there that the raw data could help tell. Yes, Iwas maybe hoping that the debate would be a bit more evenly divided to make itat least a realistic option, but that it was not speaks volumes. In this way,through this discussion, thought was provoked, I have learned, opinions weredeveloped, and the forum did exactly what is here to do. I could not be happierwith the exchange or more grateful for the knowledge received.The BRS discussion was similar, but since I had never heard of one being installedon a Piet, a simpler probe was adequate.Please don't think me reckless or foolish. I just have certain 'devices' I useto ferret out the information and passionate opinions that I seek. Yes, I wasundecided, and yes, money is and will always be a concern, but in the end, I willtypically make the appropriate choice. I just have to 'get there' intellectually,ya know? Even if I suspect something is a bad idea, I will still wantto know all the reasons why--proper vetting--covering all bases. Additionally,verbalizing the facts and opinions herein may help others later as well as weadd to the volume of researchable material.I am still not convinced that I have 5 or 6 years to save for the part in questionas Gary suggests. I am actively searching for engines and got your DVD inthe mail yesterday (Thanks!). When motivated, I can do a great deal very quickly,especially when I know what I'm doing. That is the 'know' that you and otherare sharing with me now.Given my type of tact (or complete lack there of), you may despise me when we meet(especially after all of these questions). Someone told me of a possible CCin Mexico, MO this year. If that materializes, I look forward to shaking yourhand and absorbing as much as you are willing to share. You and many others.Just wait until we get to the 'controls' questions later. [Rolling Eyes] Be patient with me gentlemen. I do like it here.--------Andy Garrett'General Purpose Creative Dude'Haysville, KansasRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
Pietenpol-List: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
Original Posted By: "William Wynne"
You cant really change the cost of planes by more than 25% or 35% even by extremescrounging and plans building. There is no way to drop the cost by 75%, stuffjust costs money at some point. Here is what you do control: What you get outof building and flying. Picture two guys, both spend 4 years, and 2,000 hoursbuilding a plane, and 50 hours aloft and 200 studying to get a LSA rating.Its five years into it. If guy A was a super scrounger, bought everything usedand spent only $9000 vs guy B who spent $24K for the same plane, buying an overhauledengine and getting all his parts from Aircraft Spruce instead of theflymart, Which builder got the better value? Who won?The correct answer: The guy who actually mastered each skill, learned the whysof every step, didnt just do every task to minimums, but aimed to master it. Theguy who sought to know every piece and part of his plane and its correct care,feeding and operation. He aimed higher, did more. He has been changed by theexperience, the guy who just did the minimums only accomplished the task, butit wasnt transformative. Real value isnt based just on what it cost, it isfar more affected by the other side of the equationwhat did you get out of it?On this point, the majority of builders cheat themselves. -wwRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
You cant really change the cost of planes by more than 25% or 35% even by extremescrounging and plans building. There is no way to drop the cost by 75%, stuffjust costs money at some point. Here is what you do control: What you get outof building and flying. Picture two guys, both spend 4 years, and 2,000 hoursbuilding a plane, and 50 hours aloft and 200 studying to get a LSA rating.Its five years into it. If guy A was a super scrounger, bought everything usedand spent only $9000 vs guy B who spent $24K for the same plane, buying an overhauledengine and getting all his parts from Aircraft Spruce instead of theflymart, Which builder got the better value? Who won?The correct answer: The guy who actually mastered each skill, learned the whysof every step, didnt just do every task to minimums, but aimed to master it. Theguy who sought to know every piece and part of his plane and its correct care,feeding and operation. He aimed higher, did more. He has been changed by theexperience, the guy who just did the minimums only accomplished the task, butit wasnt transformative. Real value isnt based just on what it cost, it isfar more affected by the other side of the equationwhat did you get out of it?On this point, the majority of builders cheat themselves. -wwRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
Original Posted By: "Douwe Blumberg"
Andy,I will save time and speak plainly: Unless you have a very serious approach change,your never going to make it in aircraft building.Your Comment: I just have certain 'devices' I use to ferret out the informationand passionate opinions that I seek."Is pretty insulting to say the least. I am not here to have people "ferret out"things. I am here to share what I know. The very concept that you honestly thinkthat knowing little or nothing about planes, you can spark an internet discussionbetween people you have never met, and then on the basis or reading afew hundred words, suddenly you are qualified to evaluate the mechanical integrity,the operational history, the builder issues and details of each option.That my friend, is a total joke.In 25 years I have personally known 500 people who have finished a homebuilt, maybe180 of them working on a plans built design that was their first plane. Theyhad a common characteristic: They all found 2 or 3 successfully builders ofthe same design, and followed their lead. They didn't 'vet' or screen thesepeople and evaluate their integrity, because they didn't have the expertise todo so. They just looked at their success, and used it as a pattern. They justcorrectly assumed that they would learn why these successful builders did whatthey did along the way. They didn't blindly follow anyone, but they didn't questionpeoples decisions on subjects they really didn't know anything about yet.I also have met, in person easily more than 10,000 people who told me that theywere absolutely personally committed to successfully building their plane, andall of these people failed. They also had a common characteristic: They thoughtjust like you. My experience says that people very rarely change their approach, no matter whatthey say. Go ahead, take the next 10 years of your spare time and all your extramoney and try to prove that you are the 1 in 10,000 guy who is going to makethe "start arguments, and evaluate from no experience" process work. Goodluck with that. Your life, your choice, your approach. -ww.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Andy,I will save time and speak plainly: Unless you have a very serious approach change,your never going to make it in aircraft building.Your Comment: I just have certain 'devices' I use to ferret out the informationand passionate opinions that I seek."Is pretty insulting to say the least. I am not here to have people "ferret out"things. I am here to share what I know. The very concept that you honestly thinkthat knowing little or nothing about planes, you can spark an internet discussionbetween people you have never met, and then on the basis or reading afew hundred words, suddenly you are qualified to evaluate the mechanical integrity,the operational history, the builder issues and details of each option.That my friend, is a total joke.In 25 years I have personally known 500 people who have finished a homebuilt, maybe180 of them working on a plans built design that was their first plane. Theyhad a common characteristic: They all found 2 or 3 successfully builders ofthe same design, and followed their lead. They didn't 'vet' or screen thesepeople and evaluate their integrity, because they didn't have the expertise todo so. They just looked at their success, and used it as a pattern. They justcorrectly assumed that they would learn why these successful builders did whatthey did along the way. They didn't blindly follow anyone, but they didn't questionpeoples decisions on subjects they really didn't know anything about yet.I also have met, in person easily more than 10,000 people who told me that theywere absolutely personally committed to successfully building their plane, andall of these people failed. They also had a common characteristic: They thoughtjust like you. My experience says that people very rarely change their approach, no matter whatthey say. Go ahead, take the next 10 years of your spare time and all your extramoney and try to prove that you are the 1 in 10,000 guy who is going to makethe "start arguments, and evaluate from no experience" process work. Goodluck with that. Your life, your choice, your approach. -ww.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________