Original Posted By: "dmcb84"
Scott, I know you are friends with those guys, and I like them also. But just to be accurate,with hope that others may learn something, let me point out that the terrainthat those guys we flying over that day, particularly the last 2/3s ofthe last leg were pretty flat, and are almost all farmland served by rotatingirrigation systems which are usually on very flat ground. From their report:.Peter began experiencing engine trouble on the flight from Tucumcari, New Mexicoto Guymon. Peter kept the airplane flying as far as Guymon, but the airplanewas damaged on landing making it impossible for the airplane to continue anyfurther. .To be fair, their first days of the trip covered 1,200 miles over very bad terrain.however on the last day they were already at the west Texas grasslands. TucumcariNM and Guymon OK are only about 160 miles apart, most of what is betweenthem is very flat Texas. The cities are connected in a dead straight lineby a 4 lane highway, route 54. The halfway point is Dalhart TX, which has a largemunicipal airport, and the 3/4 mark is Stratford TX, which has a paved 3,000'airport right next to 54. ..I spoke to these guys at Oshkosh 72 hours later, and looked at their photos. Theydescribed to me that the plane was not running perfectly before this leg. Butcritically, I listened to the description of the last leg by the pilot, andhe described having a long deteriorating condition on that leg, before he gotto the 1/2 point. It is my belief that he was fixated on getting to the plannedrendezvous with the ground crew at Guymon, and because of this he overflewthe airports at Dalhart and Stratford. He may not have known about them, and thatis why it is critical to know what is on the route. Either way, there wasthe highway, and it is far better to make a precautionary landing on a wide roadthan a forced one en route to an airport. Lesson: Once your plane is not runningor flying right, your ability to develop an alternative plan, to visuallysee little airports, or consider a precautionary landing is greatly reduced...Scott, I agree he did a fair job landing, even though the plane ended up on it'sback. How can I say that? because I did the weight and balance on the planebefore it was covered, and I told them it would have a very aft CG, and the landinggear was too far back for a plane with brakes. They elected to ignore this.That was the mistake point that put the plane on it's back, not what the pilotwas doing in Guymon. Many skilled pilots would have done the same thing,because the plane had the gear too far back. Lesson: When I privately point outthat your gear is too far back, and you think I am kidding, I might later publiclyuse the example in hopes that some one else might learn from it. I hopewhen they rebuilt the plane that they corrected the wing position, but I am goingto guess they did not...Before anyone gets upset about plain talk about a specific accident, let me pointout the following: I know the builder; I saw the plane at several stages ofthe building, including in CA; I know the engine model very well, I know theairframe well; I personally spoke to the pilot after the accident; and I holda degree in accident investigation from Embry-Riddle. These things don't makeme better than anyone else, but they do qualify me to offer some intelligent commentaryon the event. Scott knows these guys also, and also has good input tolearn from. Almost no talk about accidents on the internet comes from personallyinformed people like Scott and I. There is something that could be gainedhere which is not available in most comments elsewhere...For the record, the issue was with the Carb, which is the same one that came ona Continental, so you might want to call it a carb failure, but it isn't reallyaccurate nor informative to call it an engine failure. If there was a guy outthere flying a continental who dismissed the potential to learn anything becausehe thought this was a Corvair problem, he is being foolish, because heis likely flying an identical carb..If anyone would like to imply that a Corvair couldn't have made the flight, Please look at this month's Kitplanes, The Corvair powered KR-2S pictured at Chino CA, lives in Eastern PA, and was built by this guy: http://flycorvair.net/2012/02/27/kr-2s- ... oe-horton/ It flew out and back in the same three day weekend. .ww.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: weight and balance studying.
Pietenpol-List: weight and balance studying.
Pietenpol-List: Re: weight and balance studying.
Original Posted By: "William Wynne"
Substitute "Continental A65" for "Corvair" in the story of the French Valley Pietand you have the infamous nose-over of my airplane, NX41CC, on Veteran's Dayin November of 2004. It was not an engine failure, it was a carburetor icingoccurrence on a beautiful fall day. The precautionary landing came after lossof power with very little (or no) power remaining as the plane was put intoa rough south Texas pasture resulted in stresses that overwhelmed a rough weldon one of the landing gear legs, which led to a collapse of the undercarriageand the wipeout. If there had been bystanders or nearby observers (non-pilots),they would every single one of them have told "News 8" that "the airplane'sengine lost power, sputtered, cut out, and then the airplane went down". Thenews anchor would probably have closed the segment with something like, "theengine failure and crash are being investigated".The 'certified' Continental A65 engine did not fail. However, these stories growlegs and a life of their own, and the legends live on.If anyone cares to read more about this, I have some photos and text at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/incident/incident.html but my guess is that nobody wants to read about Continental "failures"... Corvair "failures" make for much better news.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: weight and balance studying.
Substitute "Continental A65" for "Corvair" in the story of the French Valley Pietand you have the infamous nose-over of my airplane, NX41CC, on Veteran's Dayin November of 2004. It was not an engine failure, it was a carburetor icingoccurrence on a beautiful fall day. The precautionary landing came after lossof power with very little (or no) power remaining as the plane was put intoa rough south Texas pasture resulted in stresses that overwhelmed a rough weldon one of the landing gear legs, which led to a collapse of the undercarriageand the wipeout. If there had been bystanders or nearby observers (non-pilots),they would every single one of them have told "News 8" that "the airplane'sengine lost power, sputtered, cut out, and then the airplane went down". Thenews anchor would probably have closed the segment with something like, "theengine failure and crash are being investigated".The 'certified' Continental A65 engine did not fail. However, these stories growlegs and a life of their own, and the legends live on.If anyone cares to read more about this, I have some photos and text at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/incident/incident.html but my guess is that nobody wants to read about Continental "failures"... Corvair "failures" make for much better news.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: weight and balance studying.
Original Posted By: "Jack Philips"
David,Terry Hand's project is nearly Identical to what you propose. If you search the archives and look at posts by "Jarheadpilot82" he has put up some info on it. It is what you propose with the only addition of a door in the front cockpit. You can see a photo of it at this link: http://flycorvair.net/2014/11/22/terry- ... ight/Which is also a moving story about Terry's father who was a Seabee in WWII..Without getting a calculator out, I will say your numbers look in the ball park.In another week or so I am going to have a sharp set of numbers for Terry'sproject fuse/mount/gear/engine, as we are going to have it on display at CC#33.You can fine tune your calculation from there. I will be glad to go over yournumbers in comparative detail then. Also keep in mind that Ryan Mueller canassist with the CG program we wrote to derive the max pilot weight to stay insidethe aft limit of any particular Pietenpol. Just a thought, If you are 135#,and thinking of welded cabanes, target a number like 15.5" with you in the plane,so that you can cover another pilot who might weigh a lot more in the plane.Running the calculation or letting Ryan do it will give exact numbers onthis..Having a Plane which in CG is actually "boring" compared to having one out theaft limit or with the gear too far back. Ryan and I did the project, and manypeople assisted, in hope that people would do exactly what you are doing, planningahead. -ww,Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
David,Terry Hand's project is nearly Identical to what you propose. If you search the archives and look at posts by "Jarheadpilot82" he has put up some info on it. It is what you propose with the only addition of a door in the front cockpit. You can see a photo of it at this link: http://flycorvair.net/2014/11/22/terry- ... ight/Which is also a moving story about Terry's father who was a Seabee in WWII..Without getting a calculator out, I will say your numbers look in the ball park.In another week or so I am going to have a sharp set of numbers for Terry'sproject fuse/mount/gear/engine, as we are going to have it on display at CC#33.You can fine tune your calculation from there. I will be glad to go over yournumbers in comparative detail then. Also keep in mind that Ryan Mueller canassist with the CG program we wrote to derive the max pilot weight to stay insidethe aft limit of any particular Pietenpol. Just a thought, If you are 135#,and thinking of welded cabanes, target a number like 15.5" with you in the plane,so that you can cover another pilot who might weigh a lot more in the plane.Running the calculation or letting Ryan do it will give exact numbers onthis..Having a Plane which in CG is actually "boring" compared to having one out theaft limit or with the gear too far back. Ryan and I did the project, and manypeople assisted, in hope that people would do exactly what you are doing, planningahead. -ww,Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________