Original Posted By: "Vincent Dunn"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Please Read - This Is Safety Related And Is VeryImportantTom, it remains amazing to me how many people begin with "facts" pertinentto an ongoing and active FAA/NTSB investigation. My efforts found thereport to be ERA17FA050. Few things stood out.Years ago I became impressed with the Alexander Build Center and the SportAviation Workshops that Ron did so much for. I consider myself a personalfriend of the manufacturer of the referenced propeller (now underinvestigation). I am going to hold judgment. Much has been said aboutrigid lines, to build or not to build to Original Standards and the resultswhich come from such personal decisions. Who more experienced that Ron andhis Front Seat Passenger to confirm the airworthiness (or Safety forFlight) than these two experienced technicians and pilots.Questions that I have were who was the FAA Safety Inspector in the FrontSeat (I don't need to know but he sure had lots of experience), the timingof the accident 1809 hours (hopefully GMT) and not after sunset inGeorgia. Ron's exceptional workmanship and the 2013 Complete Restorationshould be important. Was this prop a Pietenpol 8'3" brought over bysomeone for the specific Jenny JN4D with Hispano-Suiza E-2 engine? Whenthe copper leading edge was repaired on the prop, who was the last to dosuch work?I have lost one close friend to a fatal bad weld on his wing strut.Several friends who chose to use Red RTV on the fuel line fittings of aVans aircraft and then that aircraft was lost here in Oregon.Significant accidents like this remind me to be patient and to wait for theFacts and the final release of report. Guesses and Monday Morningquarterbacking does little more than to remind everyone that choices carryresponsibility and significant Risk. From the George Lucas movie *"ChooseWisely"*. Burt Rutan says "Question everything don't ever try to justifyany action" - keep improving.Prayers to Mr. Anderson's family and to the FAA Safety Inspector's too. Ohwhat a heartfelt loss.John Cox on the Left CoastOn Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 2:26 PM, tkreiner wrote:>> It will be interesting to see whether the final NTSB report will mention> anything about the engine mounts, and or subsequent damage to the> firewall-forward portion of the aircraft. We already know the engine is> (or was) an Hispano-Suiza E-2, which weighed roughly 450 lbs, excluding the> the radiator, and perhaps additional accessories.>> The propeller was a St. Croix, vintage unknown, however, as stated, was> made of laminated oak. Since pictures of the exact prop are difficult to> find, only an estimate can be made as to exact configuration of the prop,> whether it had straight blades, or scimitars. With an 8'3" length, losing> roughly 3 feet of blade was catastrophic. Three feet of 6" wide Oak by 1"> thick - representative of the section that separated (give or take), would> have weighed roughly 7 lbs.>> During takeoff, the engine would have been turning the full rated 1800 rpm> (30 rps), and due to the instantaneous imbalance when the prop separated,> the vibratory forces would have ripped apart all firewall forward> components, including engine mounts, and ALL connections to the engine.>> Would flexible tubing have held under those circumstances?>> With the degree of imbalance, I doubt any form of light weight tubing,> whether solid or flexible, would have held for longer than a few seconds.> At 30 rps, shutting down the engine in time to prevent any damage at all> would have been improbable...>> --------> Tom Kreiner>>> Read this topic online here:>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Pietenpol-List: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
New builder here. I'd like to laminate two pieces of half inch western hemlocktogether to create one inch square longerons. Feedback please.--------Vincent DunnSalem Oregonvincentkdunn(at)yahoo.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
New builder here. I'd like to laminate two pieces of half inch western hemlocktogether to create one inch square longerons. Feedback please.--------Vincent DunnSalem Oregonvincentkdunn(at)yahoo.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Original Posted By: "Vincent Dunn"
Mike,You are absolutely correct. The problem with that is removing the engine, the makingof the mount, re-installing the engine, building a new cowling and paintingit. I am moving the wing back and checking on using a metal prop. Moving thewing does the most good, even more than the motor mount....especially consideringthe amount of work involved. All the calculations have been kinda fun.Especially with Scott Liefeld's generous help and his putting me on the rightpath.But building a Piet is a journey to be enjoyed and not to rushed. I may end updoing all of the above! It's too cold to fly it this time of the year, anyway!And if I can't shake this lousy cold, I might lose ten lbs. off my butt?Thanks for your suggestions....build'em light!Ray KrauseSent from my iPad> On Dec 19, 2016, at 5:34 PM, iowaboy wrote:> > > A suggestion would be to make a new motor mount that would be longer so youwould move the weight of the engine and prop forward to help you weight and balance???This way you don't add that much weight to the plane.> > Now maybe that is not a good idea? I have heard of others who had other designswho did this to help weight and balance.> > Mike In Iowa> > --------> Serve the Lord with gladness,> Mike> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 199#464199> > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Mike,You are absolutely correct. The problem with that is removing the engine, the makingof the mount, re-installing the engine, building a new cowling and paintingit. I am moving the wing back and checking on using a metal prop. Moving thewing does the most good, even more than the motor mount....especially consideringthe amount of work involved. All the calculations have been kinda fun.Especially with Scott Liefeld's generous help and his putting me on the rightpath.But building a Piet is a journey to be enjoyed and not to rushed. I may end updoing all of the above! It's too cold to fly it this time of the year, anyway!And if I can't shake this lousy cold, I might lose ten lbs. off my butt?Thanks for your suggestions....build'em light!Ray KrauseSent from my iPad> On Dec 19, 2016, at 5:34 PM, iowaboy wrote:> > > A suggestion would be to make a new motor mount that would be longer so youwould move the weight of the engine and prop forward to help you weight and balance???This way you don't add that much weight to the plane.> > Now maybe that is not a good idea? I have heard of others who had other designswho did this to help weight and balance.> > Mike In Iowa> > --------> Serve the Lord with gladness,> Mike> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 199#464199> > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Thanks, Paul. I think your pictures and description told me what I need to know.Very excited by this information. It really helped me a great deal.--------Vincent DunnSalem Oregonvincentkdunn(at)yahoo.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Thanks, Paul. I think your pictures and description told me what I need to know.Very excited by this information. It really helped me a great deal.--------Vincent DunnSalem Oregonvincentkdunn(at)yahoo.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Original Posted By: "Pocono John"
Are you out of PGD by chance? [quote="paradox4u2(at)yahoo.com"]Hey guys, Appreciate the response on the wing dilemma. Just to answer a few questions; spaceis not a problem. I fortunately have an old WW II hanger for a work shop(in the back) so I've got plenty of room. I work nights at the airport and I workon the Piet at night at work. Just a perk of flying medevac at night withyour base next to the hanger. So I guess I'm a night owl. It appears that most choose the three piece wing due to space issues but I didn'tknow if there were some other advantages besides the fact that you can trailerit easier. I'm planning on the one piece wing unless someone can convinceme otherwise. Of course, when I get to the spar scarf issues, I may change mymind. Anyhoo, thanks for the input. Looking forward to the endeavor! Dallas > --------Respectfully, Craig CRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Are you out of PGD by chance? [quote="paradox4u2(at)yahoo.com"]Hey guys, Appreciate the response on the wing dilemma. Just to answer a few questions; spaceis not a problem. I fortunately have an old WW II hanger for a work shop(in the back) so I've got plenty of room. I work nights at the airport and I workon the Piet at night at work. Just a perk of flying medevac at night withyour base next to the hanger. So I guess I'm a night owl. It appears that most choose the three piece wing due to space issues but I didn'tknow if there were some other advantages besides the fact that you can trailerit easier. I'm planning on the one piece wing unless someone can convinceme otherwise. Of course, when I get to the spar scarf issues, I may change mymind. Anyhoo, thanks for the input. Looking forward to the endeavor! Dallas > --------Respectfully, Craig CRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Original Posted By: "(null) raykrause"
Check here: http://content.aviation-safety-bureau.c ... --JohnRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Check here: http://content.aviation-safety-bureau.c ... --JohnRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Original Posted By: "JimP"
Oscar,Thanks for the offer! I know the difference in weights between a wood and metalprop of similar size, so I can make the calculations. I managed to move thewing back another 1.5" and will see what that does. I weighed it today, will seehow the math compares to the real thing. I'm making progress! Hope I don'thave to use a metal prop or extra weights. Maybe a heavy "spinner"? It just takestime, hood I'm not in a hurry.Thanks,RaySent from my iPad> On Dec 20, 2016, at 8:06 PM, taildrags wrote:> > > Ray: my airplane originally flew with a metal prop so I'm sure there is somethingin the logbooks about the prop size and weight. Corky would have had todo a new W&B after the prop was changed to wood. If it would help you to havethe information on the weight difference, I can dig out the logbooks on 41CCand see what I find there. Here's how it looked back then: > > http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/NX41CC01.jpg> > --------> Oscar Zuniga> Medford, OR> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"> A75 power, 72x36 Culver prop> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 223#464223> > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Oscar,Thanks for the offer! I know the difference in weights between a wood and metalprop of similar size, so I can make the calculations. I managed to move thewing back another 1.5" and will see what that does. I weighed it today, will seehow the math compares to the real thing. I'm making progress! Hope I don'thave to use a metal prop or extra weights. Maybe a heavy "spinner"? It just takestime, hood I'm not in a hurry.Thanks,RaySent from my iPad> On Dec 20, 2016, at 8:06 PM, taildrags wrote:> > > Ray: my airplane originally flew with a metal prop so I'm sure there is somethingin the logbooks about the prop size and weight. Corky would have had todo a new W&B after the prop was changed to wood. If it would help you to havethe information on the weight difference, I can dig out the logbooks on 41CCand see what I find there. Here's how it looked back then: > > http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/NX41CC01.jpg> > --------> Oscar Zuniga> Medford, OR> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"> A75 power, 72x36 Culver prop> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 223#464223> > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Original Posted By: "Vincent Dunn"
I laminated a pair of pre-formed lower longerons for my fuselage mockup becauseI didnt want to deal with the bending operation. Each one was a sandwich of (3)0.333 thick x 1.5 wide strips. I found this 3-strip bundle was very flexibleI was easily able to clamp it in its final shape on the fuselage template (thewet glue even seemed to facilitate by acting like a lubricant!). When removedfrom the mold it retained its shape with almost no spring-back. On the tablesaw I had no difficulty in cleaning up the sides to bring it down to 1 wide.This was only a pine/Titebond III mockup, but I found it remarkably easy to do,and strong & stiff. I felt it greatly simplified the task of building up thefuselage sides because I didnt have to fight with the pieces. On the down side,I had to use every clamp I owned, and then some to make sure there were nogaps anywhere. JimRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/fuse ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
I laminated a pair of pre-formed lower longerons for my fuselage mockup becauseI didnt want to deal with the bending operation. Each one was a sandwich of (3)0.333 thick x 1.5 wide strips. I found this 3-strip bundle was very flexibleI was easily able to clamp it in its final shape on the fuselage template (thewet glue even seemed to facilitate by acting like a lubricant!). When removedfrom the mold it retained its shape with almost no spring-back. On the tablesaw I had no difficulty in cleaning up the sides to bring it down to 1 wide.This was only a pine/Titebond III mockup, but I found it remarkably easy to do,and strong & stiff. I felt it greatly simplified the task of building up thefuselage sides because I didnt have to fight with the pieces. On the down side,I had to use every clamp I owned, and then some to make sure there were nogaps anywhere. JimRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/fuse ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Original Posted By: "Charles Burkholder"
Oscar:Thanks for the book loan offer. I accept! I've read many of your posts and it'snice to know there's another Piet builder not so far away. There's a nice littlerestaurant on the field at KSLE. Let me know when you're coming to town andI'll be happy to buy us lunch or dinner. JimP,Great pix! I am also building a mock-up fuselage (as recommended by Tony Bengilis).I've also thought about being able to laminate the lower longerons withoutsteaming first. Thanks again,--------Vincent DunnSalem Oregonvincentkdunn(at)yahoo.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Oscar:Thanks for the book loan offer. I accept! I've read many of your posts and it'snice to know there's another Piet builder not so far away. There's a nice littlerestaurant on the field at KSLE. Let me know when you're coming to town andI'll be happy to buy us lunch or dinner. JimP,Great pix! I am also building a mock-up fuselage (as recommended by Tony Bengilis).I've also thought about being able to laminate the lower longerons withoutsteaming first. Thanks again,--------Vincent DunnSalem Oregonvincentkdunn(at)yahoo.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Re: one/three piece wing
Original Posted By: "aviken"
Hi All. I am wondering what thickness of stainless steel people used fortheir nose fuel tank straps? I have a bunch of .016 that will be leftoverfrom my firewall, is this material too thin? ThanksCharles Burkholder________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: one/three piece wing
Hi All. I am wondering what thickness of stainless steel people used fortheir nose fuel tank straps? I have a bunch of .016 that will be leftoverfrom my firewall, is this material too thin? ThanksCharles Burkholder________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: one/three piece wing
Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Nothing better to do on a cold winter's day but to examine the photos of that canopyand try to figure out how the cockpits are accessed. I've thought aboutseveral possibilities for both canopies.The front canopy may be flat plastic that is simply wrapped over the tubular framework.If it's hinged up along the middle of the top, it could be held up flatto the underside of the wing while the pax climbs in, then the bottom latchedin place or a hinge pin slipped in if it's a piano hinge.The rear canopy is more baffling. As Bill observes, there is clearly a notch inthe aft edge to allow it to slide part-way over the antenna. If the lower edgesof the canopy are on drawer-slide type tracks, it could slide back enoughto allow entry, but I don't think that notch would allow it to go back very farover the antenna.Currently registered to George Lockhart in Pugwash, Nova Scotia... apparently witha beautiful view across Northumberland Strait to Prince Edward Island. Probablyneed an engine warmer up there ;o)--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power, 72x36 Culver propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Nothing better to do on a cold winter's day but to examine the photos of that canopyand try to figure out how the cockpits are accessed. I've thought aboutseveral possibilities for both canopies.The front canopy may be flat plastic that is simply wrapped over the tubular framework.If it's hinged up along the middle of the top, it could be held up flatto the underside of the wing while the pax climbs in, then the bottom latchedin place or a hinge pin slipped in if it's a piano hinge.The rear canopy is more baffling. As Bill observes, there is clearly a notch inthe aft edge to allow it to slide part-way over the antenna. If the lower edgesof the canopy are on drawer-slide type tracks, it could slide back enoughto allow entry, but I don't think that notch would allow it to go back very farover the antenna.Currently registered to George Lockhart in Pugwash, Nova Scotia... apparently witha beautiful view across Northumberland Strait to Prince Edward Island. Probablyneed an engine warmer up there ;o)--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power, 72x36 Culver propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Original Posted By: "aviken"
Beautiful work! Looks burly and fast.... relatively speaking of course. I like.Cheers.Chris>>I haven't fully enclosed it yet but probably will build that option forthe florida to Broadhead trip...."________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Beautiful work! Looks burly and fast.... relatively speaking of course. I like.Cheers.Chris>>I haven't fully enclosed it yet but probably will build that option forthe florida to Broadhead trip...."________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Original Posted By: Glen Schweizer
Excuse me, but is the picture of your mock-up? If so, I would just put wingson it and fly it . Good grief I don't think Uncle Tony intended for us to builda complete aircraft twice. My mock up was just a couple of pine 1x1 gluedin the shape of a normal cockpit opening. I slipped it over my head and my shouldersfit so I busted it up and threw it in the stove, end of story.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Excuse me, but is the picture of your mock-up? If so, I would just put wingson it and fly it . Good grief I don't think Uncle Tony intended for us to builda complete aircraft twice. My mock up was just a couple of pine 1x1 gluedin the shape of a normal cockpit opening. I slipped it over my head and my shouldersfit so I busted it up and threw it in the stove, end of story.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Original Posted By: "JimP"
I have just added over 50 airport cafs (and still growing) to current listingsin the Airport Courtesy Cars website and app (just in case your courtesy car isntavailable when you arrive!) These listings are highlighted in red so you caneasily find them. If you have any additions or corrections, please email themdirectly to me at airportcars101(at)gmail.com. Thanks and Happy New Year! GlennPS, Submit your ramp fee's experience also for inclusion in the website/app!--------Glenn BraschRV-9A FlyingMedevac Helicopter Pilot (Ret)Owner, "Airport Courtesy Cars" Smart Phone Appand www.airportcourtesycars.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
I have just added over 50 airport cafs (and still growing) to current listingsin the Airport Courtesy Cars website and app (just in case your courtesy car isntavailable when you arrive!) These listings are highlighted in red so you caneasily find them. If you have any additions or corrections, please email themdirectly to me at airportcars101(at)gmail.com. Thanks and Happy New Year! GlennPS, Submit your ramp fee's experience also for inclusion in the website/app!--------Glenn BraschRV-9A FlyingMedevac Helicopter Pilot (Ret)Owner, "Airport Courtesy Cars" Smart Phone Appand www.airportcourtesycars.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage longerons, laminated?
Original Posted By: "Decou, Norman"
No Glen, it really is just a mockup! It was a silly thing to do and I cant justifybuilding it, but I can share with you the story of how it happened!:I was teaching myself CAD when I received a set of Pietenpol plans from my Dadfor Christmas. Putting 2 and 2 together, I decided to model the fuselage.Then, when my step-grandson from Argentina came to stay with us for a little while,I got the idea to build the mockup with him as a little project. We hada great time, and I would like to think it contributed to his skill set in someway (and it validated the CAD model). Now if we had used spruce, wed a had something!Note: I recognize that although it may look like a real fuselage, it is not airworthyand needs to leave my hands in little cut up pieces! JimRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/airp ... __________
No Glen, it really is just a mockup! It was a silly thing to do and I cant justifybuilding it, but I can share with you the story of how it happened!:I was teaching myself CAD when I received a set of Pietenpol plans from my Dadfor Christmas. Putting 2 and 2 together, I decided to model the fuselage.Then, when my step-grandson from Argentina came to stay with us for a little while,I got the idea to build the mockup with him as a little project. We hada great time, and I would like to think it contributed to his skill set in someway (and it validated the CAD model). Now if we had used spruce, wed a had something!Note: I recognize that although it may look like a real fuselage, it is not airworthyand needs to leave my hands in little cut up pieces! JimRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/airp ... __________