Original Posted By: Gordon Brimhall
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ...>Gordon Brimhall wrote:>>>> I met an old flight instructor who is also a instructor at Edwards AFB,he>> must be 70 yrs old and asked him what he instructs in, He said "AnythingYou>> Bring" or "We can rent a 150">>>> His wife has and flies a Piet.>>>> Gordon>>Gordon,>>You must be talking about Wen and JoAnne Painter up at Mojave. Very>nice folks, they literally gave me some birch plywood to use on my>Piet. JoAnne flew her Piet down to Corona last spring, took her a week>to get it home due to winds and bad weather in the pass.>>Mike List>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ...
Pietenpol-List: Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ...
Original Posted By: Doug
Gordon Brimhall wrote:> > I met an old flight instructor who is also a instructor at Edwards AFB, he> must be 70 yrs old and asked him what he instructs in, He said "Anything You> Bring" or "We can rent a 150"> > His wife has and flies a Piet.> > GordonGordon,You must be talking about Wen and JoAnne Painter up at Mojave. Verynice folks, they literally gave me some birch plywood to use on myPiet. JoAnne flew her Piet down to Corona last spring, took her a weekto get it home due to winds and bad weather in the pass.Mike List________________________________________________________________________________
Gordon Brimhall wrote:> > I met an old flight instructor who is also a instructor at Edwards AFB, he> must be 70 yrs old and asked him what he instructs in, He said "Anything You> Bring" or "We can rent a 150"> > His wife has and flies a Piet.> > GordonGordon,You must be talking about Wen and JoAnne Painter up at Mojave. Verynice folks, they literally gave me some birch plywood to use on myPiet. JoAnne flew her Piet down to Corona last spring, took her a weekto get it home due to winds and bad weather in the pass.Mike List________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ...
Original Posted By: mbell1(at)columbiaenergygroup.com
The regulation FAR91.319(a)(2) states: (a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate-- (2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.This regulation is probably written simple on purpose. It relinguishesthe FAA from any regulatory stipulations concerning airworthinessfor Experimental certificated airplanes for business transactions (moneychanging hands). (THIS IS A GOOD THING ..)The regulation is not limited to hire of the aircraft, but excludes alsouseage of the aircraft in any person carrying activity for whichmoney is charged. Charging for instruction is carrying a personwith compensation happening.Side related comment (sobering thought) -->In fact, for an authorized flightinstruction session (some exceptions for instrument instruction .. verytightly written), i.e. authorized flight instructor givingthe instruction, the instructor is required to be at minimumqualified to be pilot in command. Any such flight instructionis also loggable as pilot in command by the instructor."David B. Schober" wroteDavid,FAR 91.319 (a) (3) states that an experimental airplane may not beoperated carrying passengers or property for hire. It does not statethat an instructor can't charge for his time. As long as the airplanesis not being used for hire, a commercial pilot/instructor can chargefor his time. Charging for instruction, charging for test flying andcharging for ferrying an airplane are not necessarily operating anairplane for hire!David Scott wrote:> This is prohibited by 14CFR91.319 and it does not stipulate> any exception to who owns the aircraft, who is using the controls,> or what relation the person has in relation to the aircraft or> what relation the person has to certifications.>> I can not find any regulation which would protect the CFI charging> for in-flight flight instruction should there be a challenge posed.>> Any comments are welcome, but as with many of these> discussion groups, it is important to fall back on hard facts.> Just because I (or any other person) happen to write something> out here, be sure to search out the truth before embarkment....>> ....... Almost sounds like the New Testament chuch at Berea . . .>> Any "Berean" types out there have any info they can add ?>> ---------1---------2---------3---------4---------5---------6---------7>> /-------------------- |~~_____/~~__ |> |scott(at)haulpak.com | o' ~~|~~~ |>> =======> Dick Dery wrote:> =======> Actually, an instructor may charge for instruction given in a homebuilt, as> long as the instructor is not the owner/operator of the aircraft.> As long as it isn't his airplane, he is allowed to charge for the> service(flight instruction) that he is providing. The CFI isn't being paid> to fly the airplane, he's being paid to teach(My CFI examiner told me that> the sign of a good instructor is how little stick time the CFI gets).The FAA> doesn't automatically assume that the CFI is the owner/operator of an> aircraft he is flying in. Being the owner/operator is not the same thing as> being Pilot-in-Command. For example, a pilot that works at an FBO can be> PIC of an aircraft he is flying, but he is not the owner/operator.>> ========> David Scott wrote:> ========> This is a quick note -->>> Expermental airplanes can not be used for comercial operations (hired).>> The instructor can not legally charge for flight instruction while flying anexperimental,> however he can give instruction. Charging for instruction is deemed:>>> and this is prohibited by 14CFR91.319.>> But yes, sharing of expenses is allowed also for experimentals.>> The instructor is taking a BIG risk to even imply a charge --> consequences couldbe legally> devastating.>> Below is a copy of the 01 Jan 99 regulation>> David Scott> CFII>> REF: 14CFR91.319> ---------------------->
The regulation FAR91.319(a)(2) states: (a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate-- (2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.This regulation is probably written simple on purpose. It relinguishesthe FAA from any regulatory stipulations concerning airworthinessfor Experimental certificated airplanes for business transactions (moneychanging hands). (THIS IS A GOOD THING ..)The regulation is not limited to hire of the aircraft, but excludes alsouseage of the aircraft in any person carrying activity for whichmoney is charged. Charging for instruction is carrying a personwith compensation happening.Side related comment (sobering thought) -->In fact, for an authorized flightinstruction session (some exceptions for instrument instruction .. verytightly written), i.e. authorized flight instructor givingthe instruction, the instructor is required to be at minimumqualified to be pilot in command. Any such flight instructionis also loggable as pilot in command by the instructor."David B. Schober" wroteDavid,FAR 91.319 (a) (3) states that an experimental airplane may not beoperated carrying passengers or property for hire. It does not statethat an instructor can't charge for his time. As long as the airplanesis not being used for hire, a commercial pilot/instructor can chargefor his time. Charging for instruction, charging for test flying andcharging for ferrying an airplane are not necessarily operating anairplane for hire!David Scott wrote:> This is prohibited by 14CFR91.319 and it does not stipulate> any exception to who owns the aircraft, who is using the controls,> or what relation the person has in relation to the aircraft or> what relation the person has to certifications.>> I can not find any regulation which would protect the CFI charging> for in-flight flight instruction should there be a challenge posed.>> Any comments are welcome, but as with many of these> discussion groups, it is important to fall back on hard facts.> Just because I (or any other person) happen to write something> out here, be sure to search out the truth before embarkment....>> ....... Almost sounds like the New Testament chuch at Berea . . .>> Any "Berean" types out there have any info they can add ?>> ---------1---------2---------3---------4---------5---------6---------7>> /-------------------- |~~_____/~~__ |> |scott(at)haulpak.com | o' ~~|~~~ |>> =======> Dick Dery wrote:> =======> Actually, an instructor may charge for instruction given in a homebuilt, as> long as the instructor is not the owner/operator of the aircraft.> As long as it isn't his airplane, he is allowed to charge for the> service(flight instruction) that he is providing. The CFI isn't being paid> to fly the airplane, he's being paid to teach(My CFI examiner told me that> the sign of a good instructor is how little stick time the CFI gets).The FAA> doesn't automatically assume that the CFI is the owner/operator of an> aircraft he is flying in. Being the owner/operator is not the same thing as> being Pilot-in-Command. For example, a pilot that works at an FBO can be> PIC of an aircraft he is flying, but he is not the owner/operator.>> ========> David Scott wrote:> ========> This is a quick note -->>> Expermental airplanes can not be used for comercial operations (hired).>> The instructor can not legally charge for flight instruction while flying anexperimental,> however he can give instruction. Charging for instruction is deemed:>>> and this is prohibited by 14CFR91.319.>> But yes, sharing of expenses is allowed also for experimentals.>> The instructor is taking a BIG risk to even imply a charge --> consequences couldbe legally> devastating.>> Below is a copy of the 01 Jan 99 regulation>> David Scott> CFII>> REF: 14CFR91.319> ---------------------->
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> [Title 14, Volume 2, Parts 60 to 139]> [Revised as of January 1, 1999]> >From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access> [CITE: 14CFR91.319]>> [Page 219-220]>>> CHAPTER I--FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION>> PART 91--GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES--Table of Contents>>> Sec. 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.>> (a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental> certificate--> (1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued;> or> (2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.> (b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental> certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is> shown that--> (1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of> speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and> (2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or> design features.> (c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special> operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an> experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested> airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for> particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over> a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with> terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of> safety in air commerce.> (d) Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental> certificate shall--> (1) Advise each person carried of the experimental nature of the> aircraft;> (2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically> authorized by the Administrator; and> (3) Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the> aircraft when operating the aircraft into or out of airports with> operating control towers.> (e) The Administrator may prescribe additional limitations that the> Administrator considers necessary, including>> [[Page 220]]>> limitations on the persons that may be carried in the aircraft.>> (Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number> 2120-0005)-----------1---------2---------3---------4---------5---------6---------7/-------------------- |~~_____/~~__ ||scott(at)haulpak.com | o' ~~|~~~ |________________________________________________________________________________Pietenpol-List: Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ...
Original Posted By: Wkoucky(at)aol.com
The regulation FAR91.319(a)(2) states: (a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate-- (2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire. ======== I think this is the word we should be keying on here. Carrying as in passengers and cargo. Your not carrying when flight instructing, you are flight instructing. ======== If you were to try to do part 91 sightseeing etc., or part 135 air taxi then you would run afoul of this one. I do like the one suggestion wherever you stand on the thing, best to get with your FSDO, and make sure they share your opinion.________________________________________________________________________________
The regulation FAR91.319(a)(2) states: (a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate-- (2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire. ======== I think this is the word we should be keying on here. Carrying as in passengers and cargo. Your not carrying when flight instructing, you are flight instructing. ======== If you were to try to do part 91 sightseeing etc., or part 135 air taxi then you would run afoul of this one. I do like the one suggestion wherever you stand on the thing, best to get with your FSDO, and make sure they share your opinion.________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ...
Original Posted By: Gordon Brimhall
This is a quote that came from the Kitplanes Website and I found it under "Questions about homebuilt aircraft" and was the first FAQ that they listed. The question was "What can I do with a homebuilt aircraft? I directly cut and pasted over to here. It is still only an opinion, so treat it as such. Here goes:"Once the assigned test-flight period is completed, a homebuilt is operated much like any factory-built, certified plane, with one exception: Commercial use of the aircraft (rental, charter, paid flight instruction and cropdusting, for example) is generally precluded. The homebuilt owner may hire a flight instructor, but a flight instructor cannot charge for instruction in his/her own homebuilt."________________________________________________________________________________
This is a quote that came from the Kitplanes Website and I found it under "Questions about homebuilt aircraft" and was the first FAQ that they listed. The question was "What can I do with a homebuilt aircraft? I directly cut and pasted over to here. It is still only an opinion, so treat it as such. Here goes:"Once the assigned test-flight period is completed, a homebuilt is operated much like any factory-built, certified plane, with one exception: Commercial use of the aircraft (rental, charter, paid flight instruction and cropdusting, for example) is generally precluded. The homebuilt owner may hire a flight instructor, but a flight instructor cannot charge for instruction in his/her own homebuilt."________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ...
Original Posted By: Gary Meadows
I met an old flight instructor who is also a instructor at Edwards AFB, hemust be 70 yrs old and asked him what he instructs in, He said "Anything YouBring" or "We can rent a 150"His wife has and flies a Piet.Gordon----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________
I met an old flight instructor who is also a instructor at Edwards AFB, hemust be 70 yrs old and asked him what he instructs in, He said "Anything YouBring" or "We can rent a 150"His wife has and flies a Piet.Gordon----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ...
Original Posted By: michael list
Yep thats them, he told the story about his wife and the winds, I reallyenjoyed his talk about the new rules and he kept throwing in some storiesabout his up coming from a young boy. He could be one of my Heros.Your very lucky to have met him as I was.Gordon----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________
Yep thats them, he told the story about his wife and the winds, I reallyenjoyed his talk about the new rules and he kept throwing in some storiesabout his up coming from a young boy. He could be one of my Heros.Your very lucky to have met him as I was.Gordon----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ...
Original Posted By: michael list
I was at the Piet flyin at Benton today. Brought this subject up to two CFIs and both said that it was ok to flight instruct in the student pilotsexperimental aircraft. One of them has actually done it!The flyin at Benton, KS was a great success even if the weather was bad.I'll try to post some pictures to my web site this weekend.Greg Yotz-----Original Message-----
I was at the Piet flyin at Benton today. Brought this subject up to two CFIs and both said that it was ok to flight instruct in the student pilotsexperimental aircraft. One of them has actually done it!The flyin at Benton, KS was a great success even if the weather was bad.I'll try to post some pictures to my web site this weekend.Greg Yotz-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ...
Original Posted By: Greg Yotz
In the old days you used to be able to have a horse riding instructorinstruct us on your own horse, then the govt took over and changed therules. Now you have to rent a horse to be instructed on because your besthorse was considered an experamental horse.Is their something wrong with this picture, What ever happened to our rightsto choose who instructed us, and to choose what we were instructed in. Wehave lost so much freedom in this country It is sickening me.Read the constitution, we never gave the govt the right to do all of this.Just my opinion.I guess I hold it dear because my Grandfather Sylvanous fought in theRevolutionary War for our rights.I'm getting tired of "Mother May I"Gordon----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________
In the old days you used to be able to have a horse riding instructorinstruct us on your own horse, then the govt took over and changed therules. Now you have to rent a horse to be instructed on because your besthorse was considered an experamental horse.Is their something wrong with this picture, What ever happened to our rightsto choose who instructed us, and to choose what we were instructed in. Wehave lost so much freedom in this country It is sickening me.Read the constitution, we never gave the govt the right to do all of this.Just my opinion.I guess I hold it dear because my Grandfather Sylvanous fought in theRevolutionary War for our rights.I'm getting tired of "Mother May I"Gordon----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________
> Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ...
Original Posted By: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
> Subject: Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ...>>> >Gordon Brimhall wrote:> >>> >> I met an old flight instructor who is also a instructor at Edwards AFB,> he> >> must be 70 yrs old and asked him what he instructs in, He said"Anything> You> >> Bring" or "We can rent a 150"> >>> >> His wife has and flies a Piet.> >>> >> Gordon> >> >Gordon,> >> >You must be talking about Wen and JoAnne Painter up at Mojave. Very> >nice folks, they literally gave me some birch plywood to use on my> >Piet. JoAnne flew her Piet down to Corona last spring, took her a week> >to get it home due to winds and bad weather in the pass.> >> >Mike List> >>>________________________________________________________________________________
> Subject: Re: Instructor in a Piet (low and slow) ...>>> >Gordon Brimhall wrote:> >>> >> I met an old flight instructor who is also a instructor at Edwards AFB,> he> >> must be 70 yrs old and asked him what he instructs in, He said"Anything> You> >> Bring" or "We can rent a 150"> >>> >> His wife has and flies a Piet.> >>> >> Gordon> >> >Gordon,> >> >You must be talking about Wen and JoAnne Painter up at Mojave. Very> >nice folks, they literally gave me some birch plywood to use on my> >Piet. JoAnne flew her Piet down to Corona last spring, took her a week> >to get it home due to winds and bad weather in the pass.> >> >Mike List> >>>________________________________________________________________________________