Original Posted By: "Jack Phillips (EUS)"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt sizeHas anyone installed the rudder bar and pedestal assembly? I'm wondering if the bolt brazed (welded, really) in the rudder pedestal is REALLY supposed to be a 5/16 bolt. Drilling out the 3/8 OD piece of tubing that forms the pivot bushing in the rudder bar to accomodate a 5/16 mounting bolt would only leave a wallthickness of about 0.030" in the pivot bushing. Doesn't seem like much for a part that needs to tolerate a fair amount of abuse...________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt size
Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt size
Original Posted By: "William C. Beerman"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt size>>>Has anyone installed the rudder bar and pedestal assembly? I'm>wondering if the bolt brazed (welded, really) in the rudder>pedestal is REALLY supposed to be a 5/16 bolt. Drilling out the>3/8 OD piece of tubing that forms the pivot bushing in the rudder>bar to accomodate a 5/16 mounting bolt would only leave a wall>thickness of about 0.030" in the pivot bushing.>>Doesn't seem like much for a part that needs to tolerate a fair>amount of abuse...DON'T CHANGE IT. REPEAT, DON'T CHANGE IT.I had a 1/4 in bolt in there for a few years. I was taxing out to the runwayat Glens Falls NY airport one day, & bam, the bolt parted. Another twominuets and I would not be here now. Heck of a time taxing back to the ramp.Speaking of the rudder bar. there is vertical play in the rudder bar due tothe central pivot point. To minimize it, I placed plastic strips under thefull length of the fore & aft seat stringers to decrease the gap between thestringers & the rudder bar. This eliminated most of the play.Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt size>>>Has anyone installed the rudder bar and pedestal assembly? I'm>wondering if the bolt brazed (welded, really) in the rudder>pedestal is REALLY supposed to be a 5/16 bolt. Drilling out the>3/8 OD piece of tubing that forms the pivot bushing in the rudder>bar to accomodate a 5/16 mounting bolt would only leave a wall>thickness of about 0.030" in the pivot bushing.>>Doesn't seem like much for a part that needs to tolerate a fair>amount of abuse...DON'T CHANGE IT. REPEAT, DON'T CHANGE IT.I had a 1/4 in bolt in there for a few years. I was taxing out to the runwayat Glens Falls NY airport one day, & bam, the bolt parted. Another twominuets and I would not be here now. Heck of a time taxing back to the ramp.Speaking of the rudder bar. there is vertical play in the rudder bar due tothe central pivot point. To minimize it, I placed plastic strips under thefull length of the fore & aft seat stringers to decrease the gap between thestringers & the rudder bar. This eliminated most of the play.Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt size
Original Posted By:> "Michael Brusilow"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt sizeGreat! This is just the sort of information I was looking for. I don't know how many hours you have on your plane, but have you noticed any wear on the rudder bar pivot bushing?-Bill
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt sizeGreat! This is just the sort of information I was looking for. I don't know how many hours you have on your plane, but have you noticed any wear on the rudder bar pivot bushing?-Bill
Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt size
Original Posted By: "Mike Lund"
>>Great! This is just the sort of information I was looking for. I don't>know how many hours you have on your plane, but have you noticed any wearon>the rudder bar pivot bushing?>>-Bill>Hi Bill:Got about 300 hrs on Mr Sam. The pivot looked good when I did the lastannual.Another thing Bill, I brought the rudder & tailwheel cables to the rudderbar, rather than as indicated in the printMike B Piet N6897MB ( Mr Sam )________________________________________________________________________________
>>Great! This is just the sort of information I was looking for. I don't>know how many hours you have on your plane, but have you noticed any wearon>the rudder bar pivot bushing?>>-Bill>Hi Bill:Got about 300 hrs on Mr Sam. The pivot looked good when I did the lastannual.Another thing Bill, I brought the rudder & tailwheel cables to the rudderbar, rather than as indicated in the printMike B Piet N6897MB ( Mr Sam )________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt size
Original Posted By: vistin(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt size Don't change the plans, follow the directions. I keep hearingcomplaints about the plans and don't know what all the problems areabout. We've found very few mistakes or omissions. Also, the pivot boltshould be brazed in place, not welded.John LangstonPipe Creek, TXnle97(at)juno.com writes:>>>>Has anyone installed the rudder bar and pedestal assembly? I'm >wondering if the bolt brazed (welded, really) in the rudder >pedestal is REALLY supposed to be a 5/16 bolt. Drilling out the >3/8 OD piece of tubing that forms the pivot bushing in the rudder >bar to accomodate a 5/16 mounting bolt would only leave a wall>thickness of about 0.030" in the pivot bushing. >>Doesn't seem like much for a part that needs to tolerate a fair >amount of abuse...>>________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt size Don't change the plans, follow the directions. I keep hearingcomplaints about the plans and don't know what all the problems areabout. We've found very few mistakes or omissions. Also, the pivot boltshould be brazed in place, not welded.John LangstonPipe Creek, TXnle97(at)juno.com writes:>>>>Has anyone installed the rudder bar and pedestal assembly? I'm >wondering if the bolt brazed (welded, really) in the rudder >pedestal is REALLY supposed to be a 5/16 bolt. Drilling out the >3/8 OD piece of tubing that forms the pivot bushing in the rudder >bar to accomodate a 5/16 mounting bolt would only leave a wall>thickness of about 0.030" in the pivot bushing. >>Doesn't seem like much for a part that needs to tolerate a fair >amount of abuse...>>________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt size
Original Posted By:> nle97(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt sizeJohn, In this case I believe you're right; I have come to agree (based in parton feedback from this list) that the 5/16 bolt is appropriate for the rudderpedestal mount. However, I don't agree that the plans are 100% complete and mistake free. I think there's plenty of information there to allow a reasonably careful builder to produce a well built and safe aircraft, as long as he does his homework. But there ARE inconsistencies, several of which I have already encountered (such as rudder / elevator hinges needing to be built a little taller than plans to allow installation of modern AN hardware, torque tube interference with the seatbacks, etc.) as well as the interference problemwith the control stick interconnect of which I was previously unaware, andwhich you identified yourself below.My philosophy is that I consult the plans first, then interpret them with the help of modern reference manuals, such as AC43-13, ask questions of those wiser than me when doubts arise, then make an intelligent decision based on ALL the information.In the case of welding vs. brazing, I understand that brazing used to be commonplace, but per AC43-13 is no longer an acceptable repair or construction practice for joining steel parts, and although the plans say to braze the part in place, I have chosen to heed the advice in AC43-13, and of my A&P, to weld instead.If I had created the Pietenpol plans as a 16 year old apprentice draftsman, I would be very proud of myself. However, I feel much better about building this aircraft after interpreting the plans in light of modern practicesand with advice from veterans. I believe this list fuflfills a portion of that.Anyway, that's just my opinion, and I respect others'. Thanks for sharingyours!-Bill Raleigh, NC Stinson Station Wagon owner, Long fuse Piet 1/4 interest- fuselage & tail section complete, controls in progress.
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt sizeJohn, In this case I believe you're right; I have come to agree (based in parton feedback from this list) that the 5/16 bolt is appropriate for the rudderpedestal mount. However, I don't agree that the plans are 100% complete and mistake free. I think there's plenty of information there to allow a reasonably careful builder to produce a well built and safe aircraft, as long as he does his homework. But there ARE inconsistencies, several of which I have already encountered (such as rudder / elevator hinges needing to be built a little taller than plans to allow installation of modern AN hardware, torque tube interference with the seatbacks, etc.) as well as the interference problemwith the control stick interconnect of which I was previously unaware, andwhich you identified yourself below.My philosophy is that I consult the plans first, then interpret them with the help of modern reference manuals, such as AC43-13, ask questions of those wiser than me when doubts arise, then make an intelligent decision based on ALL the information.In the case of welding vs. brazing, I understand that brazing used to be commonplace, but per AC43-13 is no longer an acceptable repair or construction practice for joining steel parts, and although the plans say to braze the part in place, I have chosen to heed the advice in AC43-13, and of my A&P, to weld instead.If I had created the Pietenpol plans as a 16 year old apprentice draftsman, I would be very proud of myself. However, I feel much better about building this aircraft after interpreting the plans in light of modern practicesand with advice from veterans. I believe this list fuflfills a portion of that.Anyway, that's just my opinion, and I respect others'. Thanks for sharingyours!-Bill Raleigh, NC Stinson Station Wagon owner, Long fuse Piet 1/4 interest- fuselage & tail section complete, controls in progress.
Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt size
Original Posted By: "mike sublett"
Bill, Be careful! People have been body-slammed here on the list for remarks like that about our Piet plans!!
But before that happens, I want to say that I agree with you, and for me, I guess the process you describe is part of what I like about the Piet. You end up making it YOUR airplane, and you've ended up learning much, much, more about aircraft design than a kit-builder would, beacuse you have to!!Gary________________________________________________________________________________
Bill, Be careful! People have been body-slammed here on the list for remarks like that about our Piet plans!!
But before that happens, I want to say that I agree with you, and for me, I guess the process you describe is part of what I like about the Piet. You end up making it YOUR airplane, and you've ended up learning much, much, more about aircraft design than a kit-builder would, beacuse you have to!!Gary________________________________________________________________________________> Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt size
Original Posted By: "Joe Krzes"
> > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt size> > > > >> >> >Has anyone installed the rudder bar and pedestal assembly? I'm> >wondering if the bolt brazed (welded, really) in the rudder> >pedestal is REALLY supposed to be a 5/16 bolt. Drilling out the> >3/8 OD piece of tubing that forms the pivot bushing in the rudder> >bar to accomodate a 5/16 mounting bolt would only leave a wall> >thickness of about 0.030" in the pivot bushing.> >> >Doesn't seem like much for a part that needs to tolerate a fair> >amount of abuse...> > DON'T CHANGE IT. REPEAT, DON'T CHANGE IT.> > I had a 1/4 in bolt in there for a few years. I was taxing out to the runway> at Glens Falls NY airport one day, & bam, the bolt parted. Another two> minuets and I would not be here now. Heck of a time taxing back to the ramp.> > Speaking of the rudder bar. there is vertical play in the rudder bar due to> the central pivot point. To minimize it, I placed plastic strips under the> full length of the fore & aft seat stringers to decrease the gap between the> stringers & the rudder bar. This eliminated most of the play.> > Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )________________________________________________________________________________
> > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt size> > > > >> >> >Has anyone installed the rudder bar and pedestal assembly? I'm> >wondering if the bolt brazed (welded, really) in the rudder> >pedestal is REALLY supposed to be a 5/16 bolt. Drilling out the> >3/8 OD piece of tubing that forms the pivot bushing in the rudder> >bar to accomodate a 5/16 mounting bolt would only leave a wall> >thickness of about 0.030" in the pivot bushing.> >> >Doesn't seem like much for a part that needs to tolerate a fair> >amount of abuse...> > DON'T CHANGE IT. REPEAT, DON'T CHANGE IT.> > I had a 1/4 in bolt in there for a few years. I was taxing out to the runway> at Glens Falls NY airport one day, & bam, the bolt parted. Another two> minuets and I would not be here now. Heck of a time taxing back to the ramp.> > Speaking of the rudder bar. there is vertical play in the rudder bar due to> the central pivot point. To minimize it, I placed plastic strips under the> full length of the fore & aft seat stringers to decrease the gap between the> stringers & the rudder bar. This eliminated most of the play.> > Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )________________________________________________________________________________
> Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt size
Original Posted By: nle97(at)juno.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt size> > > Don't change the plans, follow the directions. I keep hearing> complaints about the plans and don't know what all the problems are> about. We've found very few mistakes or omissions. Also, the pivot bolt> should be brazed in place, not welded.> > John Langston> Pipe Creek, TX> nle97(at)juno.com> ----- Begin Included Message -----
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar bolt size> > > Don't change the plans, follow the directions. I keep hearing> complaints about the plans and don't know what all the problems are> about. We've found very few mistakes or omissions. Also, the pivot bolt> should be brazed in place, not welded.> > John Langston> Pipe Creek, TX> nle97(at)juno.com> ----- Begin Included Message -----