Original Posted By: "Charles Campbell"
As mentioned in an earlier post, Jim Markle and I are gathering the materials necessaryto construct our lift struts out of wood. I've done a little researchon the matter and have found that several people have done this with good results...the latest being Axel Purtee, but others such as Douwe Blumberg, WilGraf, Keri Ann Price, Paul Poulin and Allan Weise have also chosen this method.Before I push my shopping cart full of high dollar wood to the checkout lane...any thoughts on this approach?--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Wooden Lift Struts
Re: Pietenpol-List: Wooden Lift Struts
Original Posted By: K5YAC
Mark,As you know, I'm not flying yet, but mine are laminated hickory. By ripping theboards and turning the grain pattern, you only need to find boards with close,straight grain. At home, I have a very thoughtful response from Cliff Dawson,about the strength of wood, that totally assuaged all my concerns.Gary From Cool------Original Message------
Mark,As you know, I'm not flying yet, but mine are laminated hickory. By ripping theboards and turning the grain pattern, you only need to find boards with close,straight grain. At home, I have a very thoughtful response from Cliff Dawson,about the strength of wood, that totally assuaged all my concerns.Gary From Cool------Original Message------
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Original Posted By: "Charles Campbell"
I knew it... this is exactly the kind of response I expected. I'm going to gohang out with Recine. kevinpurtee wrote:> You and Markle are going to die, Mark.--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
I knew it... this is exactly the kind of response I expected. I'm going to gohang out with Recine. kevinpurtee wrote:> You and Markle are going to die, Mark.--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Original Posted By: "kevinpurtee"
Hi Mike and welcome. Take a look at the archive feature on this list. Also, DanYocum recently gave instructions on how to use Google to be very precise insearching the archives. Take a look through the last dozen posts or so and you'llfind his post.Again, welcome, and start planning to attend Brodhead in 2012.--------Kevin "Axel" PurteeNX899KPAustin/Georgetown, TXRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Hi Mike and welcome. Take a look at the archive feature on this list. Also, DanYocum recently gave instructions on how to use Google to be very precise insearching the archives. Take a look through the last dozen posts or so and you'llfind his post.Again, welcome, and start planning to attend Brodhead in 2012.--------Kevin "Axel" PurteeNX899KPAustin/Georgetown, TXRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Original Posted By:
Thank you, Ryan!do not arhcive--------Kevin "Axel" PurteeNX899KPAustin/Georgetown, TXRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 19:38:08 -0400
Thank you, Ryan!do not arhcive--------Kevin "Axel" PurteeNX899KPAustin/Georgetown, TXRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 19:38:08 -0400
Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce vs. ?????
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
For those Engineers and flying Piet owners I would appreciate some advice.I made my upper engine mounts per plans with the exception they are .0904130. The plans call for 14 gauge steel (.080 I believe). I read anarticle last night by Mr. Pietenpol where he stated one change he wouldsuggest for those installing C-65's (mine is a C-85) would be to lengthenthe mounts 3 inches. I've attached a drawing showing the change. I'mplanning to make the modification unless those in the know think I'm nuts.Thanks,JackDSM________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce vs. ?????
For those Engineers and flying Piet owners I would appreciate some advice.I made my upper engine mounts per plans with the exception they are .0904130. The plans call for 14 gauge steel (.080 I believe). I read anarticle last night by Mr. Pietenpol where he stated one change he wouldsuggest for those installing C-65's (mine is a C-85) would be to lengthenthe mounts 3 inches. I've attached a drawing showing the change. I'mplanning to make the modification unless those in the know think I'm nuts.Thanks,JackDSM________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce vs. ?????
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Original Posted By: "cjborsuk"
Hi Mike,Welcome to the forum.When it comes to choosing wood for their Piets, a lot of builders seem to spendan inordinate amount of time trying to save a few bucks. If Sitka is orderedpre-cut from Aircraft Spruce, that wood will likely only account for 10% (or less)of the total materials cost for the finished project. If you manage to finda local source of a suitable alternate wood, and select and grade it, and ripit yourself, you could reduce that percentage to 3 or 4%... for a total savingsof $600 or $700 (or, in other terms, maybe 10 tanks of AV Gas). Not that$600 is an amount to sneeze at - it's just that the cost of Sitka (or DouglasFir, or Poplar, or Hemlock or whatever) is not one of the most expensive componentsof the plane. Actually, shipping of all of your supplies will likely accountfor more than the cost of the wood - maybe THAT is where to look for savings.If aircraft builders only built with locally available wood species, only thoseon the extreme west coast would build with Sitka. Wood can be shipped almostanywhere.Now, having said all that, I purchased my wood (Sitka) locally, from a specialtywood supplier, in rough plank form, and ripped all of my wood on my table saw.But then, I enjoy woodworking, so I didn't mind the extra work required todo all that sawing.As for your question about the ribs, it probably has been done at some point overthe past 80 years that people have been building Pietenpols, but it won't becheaper, and it won't be stronger, and it won't likely be lighter than the plans-builttruss ribs. Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Hi Mike,Welcome to the forum.When it comes to choosing wood for their Piets, a lot of builders seem to spendan inordinate amount of time trying to save a few bucks. If Sitka is orderedpre-cut from Aircraft Spruce, that wood will likely only account for 10% (or less)of the total materials cost for the finished project. If you manage to finda local source of a suitable alternate wood, and select and grade it, and ripit yourself, you could reduce that percentage to 3 or 4%... for a total savingsof $600 or $700 (or, in other terms, maybe 10 tanks of AV Gas). Not that$600 is an amount to sneeze at - it's just that the cost of Sitka (or DouglasFir, or Poplar, or Hemlock or whatever) is not one of the most expensive componentsof the plane. Actually, shipping of all of your supplies will likely accountfor more than the cost of the wood - maybe THAT is where to look for savings.If aircraft builders only built with locally available wood species, only thoseon the extreme west coast would build with Sitka. Wood can be shipped almostanywhere.Now, having said all that, I purchased my wood (Sitka) locally, from a specialtywood supplier, in rough plank form, and ripped all of my wood on my table saw.But then, I enjoy woodworking, so I didn't mind the extra work required todo all that sawing.As for your question about the ribs, it probably has been done at some point overthe past 80 years that people have been building Pietenpols, but it won't becheaper, and it won't be stronger, and it won't likely be lighter than the plans-builttruss ribs. Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce vs. ?????
Original Posted By: "bender"
Mark,I am glad you asked the question. The picture below is the solid spruce I wouldlike to use for my struts. Any thoughts from all the good people??Chuck in Raleigh NCN899CBRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/spru ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce vs. ?????
Mark,I am glad you asked the question. The picture below is the solid spruce I wouldlike to use for my struts. Any thoughts from all the good people??Chuck in Raleigh NCN899CBRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/spru ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce vs. ?????
Pietenpol-List: Re: Upper Engine Mounts
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
i'm a big fan of poplar... but i've used other wood too... fir spars and whitepine in a place or tooi think stick built ribs are fun.. and pretty easy.... it takes me about a halfhour to make onejeffRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Upper Engine Mounts
i'm a big fan of poplar... but i've used other wood too... fir spars and whitepine in a place or tooi think stick built ribs are fun.. and pretty easy.... it takes me about a halfhour to make onejeffRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Upper Engine Mounts
Original Posted By: "Jack"
Hey Jack,I believe that Mr Pietenpol already extended those upper mounts. The original mountsfor the Ford Model A are shorter than the drawings you attached (from thesupplemental plans). And if you look at the plan sheet for the Continental mount,you'll see basically the same detail, but with a note that says .090 (soundfamiliar?).I'd say you're okay to use the plans without modification.By the way, nobody THINKS you're nuts ... :)Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Hey Jack,I believe that Mr Pietenpol already extended those upper mounts. The original mountsfor the Ford Model A are shorter than the drawings you attached (from thesupplemental plans). And if you look at the plan sheet for the Continental mount,you'll see basically the same detail, but with a note that says .090 (soundfamiliar?).I'd say you're okay to use the plans without modification.By the way, nobody THINKS you're nuts ... :)Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Chuck,First I'm not an Engineer, A&P, IA or an authority on wood stressproperties. I built a laminated spar because those that did know aboutthese properties told me it was stronger than a solid spar. Again, not anauthority, I was concerned about hidden flaws in the wood and the laminatedspar helped with that concern.JackDSM-----Original Message-----
Chuck,First I'm not an Engineer, A&P, IA or an authority on wood stressproperties. I built a laminated spar because those that did know aboutthese properties told me it was stronger than a solid spar. Again, not anauthority, I was concerned about hidden flaws in the wood and the laminatedspar helped with that concern.JackDSM-----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Wooden Lift Struts
Original Posted By: "Clif Dawson"
It's a good thing you still have it because my 'pooterhas disappeared the thing!How about sending it on to Mark for me.Thanks Gary.Clif - STILL workin' on brakes!> At home, I have a very thoughtful response from Cliff Dawson, about the strength of wood, that totally assuaged all my concerns.>> Gary From Cool> As mentioned in an earlier post, Jim Markle and I are gathering the > materials necessary to construct our lift struts out of wood. > Before I > push my shopping cart full of high dollar wood to the checkout lane... any > thoughts on this approach?>> --------> Mark Chouinard> Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage________________________________________________________________________________
It's a good thing you still have it because my 'pooterhas disappeared the thing!How about sending it on to Mark for me.Thanks Gary.Clif - STILL workin' on brakes!> At home, I have a very thoughtful response from Cliff Dawson, about the strength of wood, that totally assuaged all my concerns.>> Gary From Cool> As mentioned in an earlier post, Jim Markle and I are gathering the > materials necessary to construct our lift struts out of wood. > Before I > push my shopping cart full of high dollar wood to the checkout lane... any > thoughts on this approach?>> --------> Mark Chouinard> Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Original Posted By: "K5YAC"
Go here and down the page about 3/4.Two charts on wood properties.http://www.clifdawson.ca/Homepage4-10-0 ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Go here and down the page about 3/4.Two charts on wood properties.http://www.clifdawson.ca/Homepage4-10-0 ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce vs. ?????
Original Posted By: Wayne Bressler
I remember Clif's analysis found that solid spruce has more than enough strengthto handle the job. Am I remembering this correctly?Chuck899CBRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce vs. ?????
I remember Clif's analysis found that solid spruce has more than enough strengthto handle the job. Am I remembering this correctly?Chuck899CBRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce vs. ?????
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Original Posted By: "K5YAC"
Michael,Are you using quarter-sawn as shown on the Public Lumber website, or do they allow you to choose cut, grain run-out, etc?http://www.publiclumber.com/store/pc/2X ... 5.htmWayne BresslerTaildraggers, Inc.www.taildraggersinc.comOn Aug 24, 2011, at 9:33 AM, Michael Perez wrote:> > Hello and welcome. If buying sitka in bulk works for you as it did for myself, consider buying from places like Public Lumber or another suitable place. I ordered all my spruce form Public and another vendor, (can't remember who at the moment) right off the internet. You can select various thicknesses, widths and lengths. Shipping was fair and it arrived in under a week.> > I enjoyed taking the rough cut bulk and making it into usable pieces of nice spruce.> > Michael Perez> Karetaker Aero> www.karetakeraero.com> > > ============================================================================================================================================> ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Michael,Are you using quarter-sawn as shown on the Public Lumber website, or do they allow you to choose cut, grain run-out, etc?http://www.publiclumber.com/store/pc/2X ... 5.htmWayne BresslerTaildraggers, Inc.www.taildraggersinc.comOn Aug 24, 2011, at 9:33 AM, Michael Perez wrote:> > Hello and welcome. If buying sitka in bulk works for you as it did for myself, consider buying from places like Public Lumber or another suitable place. I ordered all my spruce form Public and another vendor, (can't remember who at the moment) right off the internet. You can select various thicknesses, widths and lengths. Shipping was fair and it arrived in under a week.> > I enjoyed taking the rough cut bulk and making it into usable pieces of nice spruce.> > Michael Perez> Karetaker Aero> www.karetakeraero.com> > > ============================================================================================================================================> ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Original Posted By: gboothe5(at)comcast.net
Hmm, if spruce is plenty good and laminated spruce is stronger... giddy up!Wait a minute... Chuck says, "I remember" followed by, "Am I remembering correctly?"Jack says, "not an authority"Crap, I guess I'll roll my dragon dice. [Rolling Eyes] cjborsuk wrote:> I remember Clif's analysis found that solid spruce has more than enough strengthto handle the job. Am I remembering this correctly?> jack@textors wrote:> I built a laminated spar because those that did know about these properties toldme it was stronger than a solid spar. Again, not an > authority... --------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Hmm, if spruce is plenty good and laminated spruce is stronger... giddy up!Wait a minute... Chuck says, "I remember" followed by, "Am I remembering correctly?"Jack says, "not an authority"Crap, I guess I'll roll my dragon dice. [Rolling Eyes] cjborsuk wrote:> I remember Clif's analysis found that solid spruce has more than enough strengthto handle the job. Am I remembering this correctly?> jack@textors wrote:> I built a laminated spar because those that did know about these properties toldme it was stronger than a solid spar. Again, not an > authority... --------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce vs. ?????
Original Posted By: "K5YAC"
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________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce vs. ?????
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________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce vs. ?????
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Original Posted By: "K5YAC"
Welcome Mike! As others have said... order spruce. Be light, be happy and move on. There areplenty of time consuming tasks to choose from. Don't worry, you'll get plentyof opportunity to saw, re-saw, sand, plane, etc. Enjoy the process and keep us posted.--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Welcome Mike! As others have said... order spruce. Be light, be happy and move on. There areplenty of time consuming tasks to choose from. Don't worry, you'll get plentyof opportunity to saw, re-saw, sand, plane, etc. Enjoy the process and keep us posted.--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Original Posted By: "cjborsuk"
I like that one...gboothe5(at)comcast.net wrote:> Wood struts are nothing new.--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
I like that one...gboothe5(at)comcast.net wrote:> Wood struts are nothing new.--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Original Posted By: "cjborsuk"
Well now, I guess that covers it. Clear as mud!I didn't know Eisenstein built a Piet, I didn't even know he was a pilot.Man, I have got to get out some more. Too much time in the basement. Chuck :?Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Well now, I guess that covers it. Clear as mud!I didn't know Eisenstein built a Piet, I didn't even know he was a pilot.Man, I have got to get out some more. Too much time in the basement. Chuck :?Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Original Posted By: mark lee
or Einstein either!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 09:51:31 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
or Einstein either!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 09:51:31 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Original Posted By: helspersew(at)aol.com
I had one issue with my materials that I won't publish again because the companytotally took care of the problem... all I will say is inspect your material,as you should be doing anyway. Otherwise, I have been real happy with the spruce I've purchased... it is straightgrained, straight cut and beautiful.--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
I had one issue with my materials that I won't publish again because the companytotally took care of the problem... all I will say is inspect your material,as you should be doing anyway. Otherwise, I have been real happy with the spruce I've purchased... it is straightgrained, straight cut and beautiful.--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Original Posted By: K5YAC
Well,I am sure y'all have been waiting for me to chime in on this important topic, since, as most of you all know, I do have access to the authoritative information on this and all other topics Pietenpol. But for all those new to this list, I will inform. Being the official keeper (a great burden really) of the lost BHP papers, I can, and am most willing to, investigate these subjects, but as most of you also know, I can only open the hermetically sealed jar but once every spring (in May to be exact). You know, I can't understand how year after year, the entire month of May comes and goes, without any inquiries of this type. Hmmmmmmm...... I guess you guys really don't care what BHP was thinking.Dan HelsperPuryear, TN-----Original Message-----
Well,I am sure y'all have been waiting for me to chime in on this important topic, since, as most of you all know, I do have access to the authoritative information on this and all other topics Pietenpol. But for all those new to this list, I will inform. Being the official keeper (a great burden really) of the lost BHP papers, I can, and am most willing to, investigate these subjects, but as most of you also know, I can only open the hermetically sealed jar but once every spring (in May to be exact). You know, I can't understand how year after year, the entire month of May comes and goes, without any inquiries of this type. Hmmmmmmm...... I guess you guys really don't care what BHP was thinking.Dan HelsperPuryear, TN-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Original Posted By: "TOM STINEMETZE"
I picked up my spar material from A/C Spruce in Oshkosh and the wood was beautiful.No complaints here.--------JohnRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 13:13:28 -0500
I picked up my spar material from A/C Spruce in Oshkosh and the wood was beautiful.No complaints here.--------JohnRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 13:13:28 -0500
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Perhaps it's that we don't care for your interpretation of what BHP was thinking.Darn purists. I kiiiid, I kiiiid. helspersew(at)aol.com wrote:> Well,> > I am sure y'all have been waiting for me to chime in on this important topic,since, as most of you all know, I do have access to the authoritative informationon this and all other topics Pietenpol. But for all those new to thislist, I will inform. Being the official keeper (a great burden really) of thelost BHP papers, I can, and am most willing to, investigate these subjects, butas most of you also know, I can only open the hermetically sealed jar but onceevery spring (in May to be exact). > > You know, I can't understand how year after year, the entire month of Maycomes and goes, without any inquiries of this type. Hmmmmmmm..... I guess youguys really don't care what BHP was thinking.> > Dan Helsper> Puryear, TN> > > > > > ----------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Perhaps it's that we don't care for your interpretation of what BHP was thinking.Darn purists. I kiiiid, I kiiiid. helspersew(at)aol.com wrote:> Well,> > I am sure y'all have been waiting for me to chime in on this important topic,since, as most of you all know, I do have access to the authoritative informationon this and all other topics Pietenpol. But for all those new to thislist, I will inform. Being the official keeper (a great burden really) of thelost BHP papers, I can, and am most willing to, investigate these subjects, butas most of you also know, I can only open the hermetically sealed jar but onceevery spring (in May to be exact). > > You know, I can't understand how year after year, the entire month of Maycomes and goes, without any inquiries of this type. Hmmmmmmm..... I guess youguys really don't care what BHP was thinking.> > Dan Helsper> Puryear, TN> > > > > > ----------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Original Posted By: mark lee
I'm a dumb ass for not taking a ride when it was offered. I guess I was afraidbeing a permanent fixture in his airplane.--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 14:54:31 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
I'm a dumb ass for not taking a ride when it was offered. I guess I was afraidbeing a permanent fixture in his airplane.--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 14:54:31 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce vs. ?????
Original Posted By: Wayne Bressler
Yes. With anything you use it's not what you usebut HOW you use it.Something else to ponder; ALL THE REST OFTHE DAMN PLANE IS WOOD!Just remember, those struts attach to the wing spars.Those wing spars support the entire plane 3000' inthe air ( including YOU ).And what are they made of??Just sayin........... :-)Nasty Bad Clif>> I remember Clif's analysis found that solid spruce has more than enough > strength to handle the job. Am I remembering this correctly?>> Chuck> 899CB>________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce vs. ?????
Yes. With anything you use it's not what you usebut HOW you use it.Something else to ponder; ALL THE REST OFTHE DAMN PLANE IS WOOD!Just remember, those struts attach to the wing spars.Those wing spars support the entire plane 3000' inthe air ( including YOU ).And what are they made of??Just sayin........... :-)Nasty Bad Clif>> I remember Clif's analysis found that solid spruce has more than enough > strength to handle the job. Am I remembering this correctly?>> Chuck> 899CB>________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce vs. ?????
Original Posted By: Ben Charvet
Clif,In all fairness, and with due respect, the weight WILL be worthless unless yougo through the engineering required to re-design the entire structure to suitDouglas fir (I know, I know, that's what you just said).I should have been more specific and clarified that DF is stronger, and that allmembers could be resized to accommodate this. According to this EAA wood bookI'm reading, DF is 23% stronger, and 26% heavier than spruce. If the entireairframe was redesigned to accommodate the DF, there would only be a 3% increasein weight of the structure.My hunch is that someone who builds their entire airframe from DF will not do therequisite engineering, and their airplane will, in fact, be unnecessarily heavierthan an identical example built from spruce. The 23% increased strengthisn't needed, as has been proven time and again over the last 80+ years.Now, let's assume all the wood in the completed airframe weighs 200 pounds (that'sa total guess). A 26% increase would cost you 52 pounds. That's roughlya 7.5% increase in empty weight (assuming a 700lb empty weight), or 8.6 gallonsof 100LL. That's 52 pounds of people, stuff, or gas that you can no longerhaul around.In my mind, everything is a compromise. Without a complete reengineering, substitutingDF for spruce compromises useful load and performance while unnecessarilyincreasing strength. It's a lose-meh...All that's saved is money.Wayne BresslerTaildraggers, Inc.www.taildraggersinc.comOn Aug 25, 2011, at 3:52 AM, "Clif Dawson" wrote:> > No it's not worthless weight. The strength is> commenserately more per square inch. Therefore> you would resize the parts to bring the weight> and strength in line with spruce.> > Also you can go to the link I've provided previously> and compare the weights and strengths for yourself.> > Clif> > > > >> >> If I remember correctly, douglas fir is 23% heavier than spruce, so that's worthlessweight...>> >> With any light-weight, low-power aircraft, any increase in empty weight is significant.Why add worthless weight just to save a few bucks or time duringbuilding? You'll be lugging that dead weight around every time you go flying.>> Wayne Bressler> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 08:17:52 -0400
Clif,In all fairness, and with due respect, the weight WILL be worthless unless yougo through the engineering required to re-design the entire structure to suitDouglas fir (I know, I know, that's what you just said).I should have been more specific and clarified that DF is stronger, and that allmembers could be resized to accommodate this. According to this EAA wood bookI'm reading, DF is 23% stronger, and 26% heavier than spruce. If the entireairframe was redesigned to accommodate the DF, there would only be a 3% increasein weight of the structure.My hunch is that someone who builds their entire airframe from DF will not do therequisite engineering, and their airplane will, in fact, be unnecessarily heavierthan an identical example built from spruce. The 23% increased strengthisn't needed, as has been proven time and again over the last 80+ years.Now, let's assume all the wood in the completed airframe weighs 200 pounds (that'sa total guess). A 26% increase would cost you 52 pounds. That's roughlya 7.5% increase in empty weight (assuming a 700lb empty weight), or 8.6 gallonsof 100LL. That's 52 pounds of people, stuff, or gas that you can no longerhaul around.In my mind, everything is a compromise. Without a complete reengineering, substitutingDF for spruce compromises useful load and performance while unnecessarilyincreasing strength. It's a lose-meh...All that's saved is money.Wayne BresslerTaildraggers, Inc.www.taildraggersinc.comOn Aug 25, 2011, at 3:52 AM, "Clif Dawson" wrote:> > No it's not worthless weight. The strength is> commenserately more per square inch. Therefore> you would resize the parts to bring the weight> and strength in line with spruce.> > Also you can go to the link I've provided previously> and compare the weights and strengths for yourself.> > Clif> > > > >> >> If I remember correctly, douglas fir is 23% heavier than spruce, so that's worthlessweight...>> >> With any light-weight, low-power aircraft, any increase in empty weight is significant.Why add worthless weight just to save a few bucks or time duringbuilding? You'll be lugging that dead weight around every time you go flying.>> Wayne Bressler> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 08:17:52 -0400
Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce vs. ?????
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Original Posted By: "K5YAC"
Thanks for posting this Gary. I commented to Jim a few days ago that good or bad,the wooden lift strut thread should keep us entertained for the rest of theweek. Well, it has certainly done that, and the discussion has also convincedme that we are on the right track. I had not really considered wooden lift struts until just a few days ago when Jimmentioned the idea. Initially I thought it sounded great as I started to thinkabout how certain woods would LOOK. A few days into that and the thoughtstruck me... which woods will WORK? Jim had the right idea all along based uponwhat he has seen and learned over the years, but the thought being new tome required me to ask a few questions. The conversation with everyone here andoffline has shed a lot of light on the subject. Thanks all!--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Thanks for posting this Gary. I commented to Jim a few days ago that good or bad,the wooden lift strut thread should keep us entertained for the rest of theweek. Well, it has certainly done that, and the discussion has also convincedme that we are on the right track. I had not really considered wooden lift struts until just a few days ago when Jimmentioned the idea. Initially I thought it sounded great as I started to thinkabout how certain woods would LOOK. A few days into that and the thoughtstruck me... which woods will WORK? Jim had the right idea all along based uponwhat he has seen and learned over the years, but the thought being new tome required me to ask a few questions. The conversation with everyone here andoffline has shed a lot of light on the subject. Thanks all!--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts
Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chord
Original Posted By: "Mild Bill"
Anyone searching for information on wooden lift struts should also read this thread... http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chordline?
Anyone searching for information on wooden lift struts should also read this thread... http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chordline?
Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chord
Original Posted By: "Mild Bill"
In the post I linked to in my first reply, yocum137 stated that the Riblett 612will be set to the correct incidence if one sets the spars down on the lowercapstrips and keeps the cabane struts equal length.If that is true, then the airplane won't seem to fly nose high.If that is false, then exactly what disasters will befall the builder who obtainsthe desired incidence by extending the attachment fittings on the front sparby an inch or two?--------Bill FrankRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chordline?
In the post I linked to in my first reply, yocum137 stated that the Riblett 612will be set to the correct incidence if one sets the spars down on the lowercapstrips and keeps the cabane struts equal length.If that is true, then the airplane won't seem to fly nose high.If that is false, then exactly what disasters will befall the builder who obtainsthe desired incidence by extending the attachment fittings on the front sparby an inch or two?--------Bill FrankRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chordline?
Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chord
Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
MaximumBob -I don't know yet one way or the other, but perhaps Rewey expected the incidenceangle to be 1.5 deg and made the spar faces vertical relative to the horizonat that incidence by setting the spar faces at 88.5 deg relative to the chordline. Somebody expecting the correct incidence to be 2 deg would set the sparfaces at 88 deg.Setting the spar faces at 90 deg relative to the horizon in level flight mightbe fairly common, but it's not required from considerations of structural strength.If you want 90 deg relative to the chord line, knock yourself out.--------Bill FrankRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chordline?
MaximumBob -I don't know yet one way or the other, but perhaps Rewey expected the incidenceangle to be 1.5 deg and made the spar faces vertical relative to the horizonat that incidence by setting the spar faces at 88.5 deg relative to the chordline. Somebody expecting the correct incidence to be 2 deg would set the sparfaces at 88 deg.Setting the spar faces at 90 deg relative to the horizon in level flight mightbe fairly common, but it's not required from considerations of structural strength.If you want 90 deg relative to the chord line, knock yourself out.--------Bill FrankRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chordline?
Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chord
Original Posted By: "Mild Bill"
Sorry about that Mild Bill. I didn't realize there is some built in incidencein that wing rib. I don't know much about that rib. The two things I do knowis that Mr. Riblett's claims about the Pietenpol airfoil are not at all trueand that there is exactly one airplane flying with that airfoil and I believeMr. Frank is planning to make some changes in the incidence department. Justkeep in mind that after all the hard work of building it you may have to go backand rework some things to get it to fly right. For a lot of folks that isfun and they like to do that sort of thing, which is great! Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chordline?
Sorry about that Mild Bill. I didn't realize there is some built in incidencein that wing rib. I don't know much about that rib. The two things I do knowis that Mr. Riblett's claims about the Pietenpol airfoil are not at all trueand that there is exactly one airplane flying with that airfoil and I believeMr. Frank is planning to make some changes in the incidence department. Justkeep in mind that after all the hard work of building it you may have to go backand rework some things to get it to fly right. For a lot of folks that isfun and they like to do that sort of thing, which is great! Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib - about to cut wood - spar perpendicular to chordline?