Original Posted By: "Jack Phillips"
This comes up once in a while, and was discussed within the last year ortwo.My evidence is only from others as I've not flown a Piet with a cutout.There was an article in a BPA backissue where a guy with a cutout was toldthat it decreased lift and caused more turbulence over the tailfeathers. Hedidn't really know what to believe so he took the eminently practical stepof making a foam "filler" for the cutout and duct-taping it in and then wentflying.He reported a marked improvement in handling."All I know is what I read in the papers" Will Rogers.Douwe________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: flop vs cutout
RE: Pietenpol-List: flop vs cutout
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I've flown a number of Piets, mostly with cutouts (although John Hofmann'scutout is very small - just sort of a suggestion of a cutout). I've nevernoticed any downdraft blowing down my back. Does it decrease left? Itwould almost certainly have to, since it does decrease wing area. But oneother thing a cutout adds besides ease of entry is much improved visibility.In a steep turn, when chasing that Hun as he tries to out-turn you, you havea splendid view through the cutout over the wing.I like the look of the cutout, but the flop is also a neat solutionJack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____
I've flown a number of Piets, mostly with cutouts (although John Hofmann'scutout is very small - just sort of a suggestion of a cutout). I've nevernoticed any downdraft blowing down my back. Does it decrease left? Itwould almost certainly have to, since it does decrease wing area. But oneother thing a cutout adds besides ease of entry is much improved visibility.In a steep turn, when chasing that Hun as he tries to out-turn you, you havea splendid view through the cutout over the wing.I like the look of the cutout, but the flop is also a neat solutionJack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____
Re: Pietenpol-List: flop vs cutout
Original Posted By:> owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
My cutout is useless for much of anything but like Jack stated, I don't have an issue with wind down my back.John HofmannVice-President, Information TechnologyThe Rees Group, Inc.2424 American LaneMadison, WI 53704Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150Fax: 608.443.2474Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.comOn Jun 1, 2013, at 8:32 AM, "Jack Phillips" wrote:> I=92ve flown a number of Piets, mostly with cutouts (although John Hofmann=92s cutout is very small ' just sort of a suggestion of a cutout). I=92ve never noticed any downdraft blowing down my back. Does it decrease left? It would almost certainly have to, since it does decrease wing area. But one other thing a cutout adds besides ease of entry is much improved visibility. In a steep turn, when chasing that Hun as he tries to out-turn you, you have a splendid view through the cutout over the wing.> > I like the look of the cutout, but the flop is also a neat solution> > Jack Phillips> NX899JP> Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia>
My cutout is useless for much of anything but like Jack stated, I don't have an issue with wind down my back.John HofmannVice-President, Information TechnologyThe Rees Group, Inc.2424 American LaneMadison, WI 53704Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150Fax: 608.443.2474Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.comOn Jun 1, 2013, at 8:32 AM, "Jack Phillips" wrote:> I=92ve flown a number of Piets, mostly with cutouts (although John Hofmann=92s cutout is very small ' just sort of a suggestion of a cutout). I=92ve never noticed any downdraft blowing down my back. Does it decrease left? It would almost certainly have to, since it does decrease wing area. But one other thing a cutout adds besides ease of entry is much improved visibility. In a steep turn, when chasing that Hun as he tries to out-turn you, you have a splendid view through the cutout over the wing.> > I like the look of the cutout, but the flop is also a neat solution> > Jack Phillips> NX899JP> Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia>
> Pietenpol-List: flop vs cutout
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
Re: Pietenpol-List: Lofting GAU30-612 Airfoil
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
Re: Pietenpol-List: flop vs cutout
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
Pietenpol-List: Re: flop vs cutout
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Rick; nice tank! Very similar to mine, except yours holds more fuel. One thingI will point out, something that I learned from the nose-over, is that the frontcrossmember that the tank support straps mount to can be a weak point. Takea look at the second picture here:http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/repair ... nk.htmlThe member cracked right where the strap fastening bolt (AN3) goes through, andthe small gusset glue joints at the uprights let go. When I rebuilt the supportcrossmember, I made it a little deeper (I think I used 1"x3/4") and more generoussupport haunches at the uprights, to provide more glue surface. If youhaven't covered up the front with your firewall yet, you may consider installingcorner gusset 'haunches' where the crossmember attaches to the uprights.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: flop vs cutout
Rick; nice tank! Very similar to mine, except yours holds more fuel. One thingI will point out, something that I learned from the nose-over, is that the frontcrossmember that the tank support straps mount to can be a weak point. Takea look at the second picture here:http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/repair ... nk.htmlThe member cracked right where the strap fastening bolt (AN3) goes through, andthe small gusset glue joints at the uprights let go. When I rebuilt the supportcrossmember, I made it a little deeper (I think I used 1"x3/4") and more generoussupport haunches at the uprights, to provide more glue surface. If youhaven't covered up the front with your firewall yet, you may consider installingcorner gusset 'haunches' where the crossmember attaches to the uprights.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: flop vs cutout
Original Posted By: "G Hansen"
Disclaimer: I have never flown in a Piet with the cutout, only with a flop. Thecutout on Scout had slide latches on the underside to hold it in place, butI never used them and the flop never tended to lift up in flight or on the ground,so I removed them. I may regret it if a gust ever gets under it while theairplane is parked, because if it flops forward in a hurry, the hinge is toast.I use the flop each and every time I fly, and I love it. I am 5'-9", 154#, soI'm fairly limber and I still can't imagine how you crawl in and out of the cockpitwithout a cutout or flop. Scout has the cabanes swept back 4" and I believethey are a little longer than stock, too.My routine on climbing in is to grab the cabanes, put one foot on the step, andas I swing in I push the flop up with my head. It follows me as I climb downinto the cockpit. No motions of the hand are required. Climbing out is thereverse... I stand in the cockpit, pushing the flop up with my head, and climbout.I have tried pushing the flop up into the airstream while in flight and there isa good steady aerodynamic force holding it down. I also appreciate having itthere to deflect the air past the cockpit.Cutouts are cool, but I think the flop is better.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Disclaimer: I have never flown in a Piet with the cutout, only with a flop. Thecutout on Scout had slide latches on the underside to hold it in place, butI never used them and the flop never tended to lift up in flight or on the ground,so I removed them. I may regret it if a gust ever gets under it while theairplane is parked, because if it flops forward in a hurry, the hinge is toast.I use the flop each and every time I fly, and I love it. I am 5'-9", 154#, soI'm fairly limber and I still can't imagine how you crawl in and out of the cockpitwithout a cutout or flop. Scout has the cabanes swept back 4" and I believethey are a little longer than stock, too.My routine on climbing in is to grab the cabanes, put one foot on the step, andas I swing in I push the flop up with my head. It follows me as I climb downinto the cockpit. No motions of the hand are required. Climbing out is thereverse... I stand in the cockpit, pushing the flop up with my head, and climbout.I have tried pushing the flop up into the airstream while in flight and there isa good steady aerodynamic force holding it down. I also appreciate having itthere to deflect the air past the cockpit.Cutouts are cool, but I think the flop is better.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Re: On to Brodhead fly-in, Indiana, July 23
Original Posted By: "VanDy"
Why not have the best of both worlds?The open areas will be covered in lexan.Clif"The true method of knowledge is experiment." (William Blake)In a steep turn, when chasing that Hun as he tries to out-turn you, you have a splendid view through the cutout over the wing.I like the look of the cutout, but the flop is also a neat solutionJack Phillips________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: On to Brodhead fly-in, Indiana, July 23
Why not have the best of both worlds?The open areas will be covered in lexan.Clif"The true method of knowledge is experiment." (William Blake)In a steep turn, when chasing that Hun as he tries to out-turn you, you have a splendid view through the cutout over the wing.I like the look of the cutout, but the flop is also a neat solutionJack Phillips________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: On to Brodhead fly-in, Indiana, July 23
Pietenpol-List: Re: flop vs cutout
Original Posted By: "K5YAC"
I ordered my wood package from Aircraft Spruce in 2009, before they broke it upinto "wing", "fuse", "stab" etc. At that time, the contents of their packagewas very close to Robert McKinley's list that was compiled many years ago. Itook the time to update the list a while back (attached), keeping Robert's detailsin tact, but adding a few of my own comments to indicate what I inventoriedin my AS&S package, and by my experience, where some of the materials shouldbe used. I'm told that the individual wood packages contain the same items as the previousoffering when combined, they are just broken up into more affordable smallerpackages. I'll say this... if you order the wing pack and fuse pack separately,i.e. 14' spars and 15' longerons, as in, the freight truck has to delivertwice... you've saved nothing.The count column in the attached list is my count... I have made notes where itdiffers from Robert's. In my estimate, the AS&S complete wood package, alongwith a AS&S "Bargain Bag of Spruce" is all that is needed to complete all woodconstruction minus wing ribs, wing tip bows and necessary plywood. The BargainBag of Spruce really is a good value... I dig into that pile all the time.Hope this helps!--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage and Fuse framed up - Working on Landing GearRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/mate ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: flop vs cutout
I ordered my wood package from Aircraft Spruce in 2009, before they broke it upinto "wing", "fuse", "stab" etc. At that time, the contents of their packagewas very close to Robert McKinley's list that was compiled many years ago. Itook the time to update the list a while back (attached), keeping Robert's detailsin tact, but adding a few of my own comments to indicate what I inventoriedin my AS&S package, and by my experience, where some of the materials shouldbe used. I'm told that the individual wood packages contain the same items as the previousoffering when combined, they are just broken up into more affordable smallerpackages. I'll say this... if you order the wing pack and fuse pack separately,i.e. 14' spars and 15' longerons, as in, the freight truck has to delivertwice... you've saved nothing.The count column in the attached list is my count... I have made notes where itdiffers from Robert's. In my estimate, the AS&S complete wood package, alongwith a AS&S "Bargain Bag of Spruce" is all that is needed to complete all woodconstruction minus wing ribs, wing tip bows and necessary plywood. The BargainBag of Spruce really is a good value... I dig into that pile all the time.Hope this helps!--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage and Fuse framed up - Working on Landing GearRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/mate ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: flop vs cutout
Re: Pietenpol-List: flop vs cutout
Original Posted By: Ken Bickers
"Chasing the Hun"... I can't wait!--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage and Fuse framed up - Working on Landing GearRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2013 07:50:19 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: flop vs cutout
"Chasing the Hun"... I can't wait!--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage and Fuse framed up - Working on Landing GearRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2013 07:50:19 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: flop vs cutout
Re: Pietenpol-List: flop vs cutout
Original Posted By: "Dale Johnson"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: flop vs cutout UNCLASSIFIEDWhat materiel is gasoline resistant that will do what we want? I looked up plexand Lexan and The chemical sheet said that Lexan would resist benzine, but Plexwould not. Mine has a nose tank and a Center section wing AUX tank.Blue Skies,Steve On 06/02/13, Ken Bickers wrote:> Clif, one additional consideration you might throw into the mix. If you are planninga center section fuel tank, gasoline at some point will inevitably trickledown the wing onto the lexan. That stuff really doesn't like gas. Ifyou are planning a nose tank, this wouldn't be an issue. Ken> > > On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 12:33 AM, Clif Dawson wrote:> > > Why not have the best of both worlds?> > > > The open areas will be covered in lexan.> > > > Clif> > > > "The true method of knowledge is experiment." (William Blake(blockedhttp://quote.robertgenn.com/auth_search.php?name=William+Blake))> > > > > > In a steep turn, when chasing that Hun as he tries to out-turn you, you havea splendid view through the cutout over the wing.> > I like the look of the cutout, but the flop is also a neat solution> > Jack Phillips> > > > > > > > > > > > UNCLASSIFIED________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: flop vs cutout UNCLASSIFIEDWhat materiel is gasoline resistant that will do what we want? I looked up plexand Lexan and The chemical sheet said that Lexan would resist benzine, but Plexwould not. Mine has a nose tank and a Center section wing AUX tank.Blue Skies,Steve On 06/02/13, Ken Bickers wrote:> Clif, one additional consideration you might throw into the mix. If you are planninga center section fuel tank, gasoline at some point will inevitably trickledown the wing onto the lexan. That stuff really doesn't like gas. Ifyou are planning a nose tank, this wouldn't be an issue. Ken> > > On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 12:33 AM, Clif Dawson wrote:> > > Why not have the best of both worlds?> > > > The open areas will be covered in lexan.> > > > Clif> > > > "The true method of knowledge is experiment." (William Blake(blockedhttp://quote.robertgenn.com/auth_search.php?name=William+Blake))> > > > > > In a steep turn, when chasing that Hun as he tries to out-turn you, you havea splendid view through the cutout over the wing.> > I like the look of the cutout, but the flop is also a neat solution> > Jack Phillips> > > > > > > > > > > > UNCLASSIFIED________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: flop vs cutout
Original Posted By: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB"
Too late! :-)http://www.clifdawson.ca/Homepage4-10-0 ... 9.htmlI'll just have to deal with that when it happens.But it might also just drop through the hingebeforehand.Clif Clif, one additional consideration you might throw into the mix. If you are planning a center section fuel tank, gasoline at some point will inevitably trickle down the wing onto the lexan. That stuff really doesn't like gas. On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 12:33 AM, Clif Dawson wrote: Why not have the best of both worlds? The open areas will be covered in lexan. Clif________________________________________________________________________________
Too late! :-)http://www.clifdawson.ca/Homepage4-10-0 ... 9.htmlI'll just have to deal with that when it happens.But it might also just drop through the hingebeforehand.Clif Clif, one additional consideration you might throw into the mix. If you are planning a center section fuel tank, gasoline at some point will inevitably trickle down the wing onto the lexan. That stuff really doesn't like gas. On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 12:33 AM, Clif Dawson wrote: Why not have the best of both worlds? The open areas will be covered in lexan. Clif________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: flop vs cutout
Original Posted By: "Clif Dawson"
Thanks Mike. Since the panels will be screwed down itwon't be too big a deal to change out a panel if (when? )fuel gets on it.I want to see it complete too!!
I'm working on the leftwing now.Clif I like it Cliff! I had originally thought of doing that on the rear part of the CS, but have it fixed...never thought of having it as part of the flop. I also had thought of using acyclic some places either on the sides or bottom of the fuselage...like windows...but decided against it. I would like to see it when complete. Michael Perez Pietenpol HINT Videos Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Thanks Mike. Since the panels will be screwed down itwon't be too big a deal to change out a panel if (when? )fuel gets on it.I want to see it complete too!!
I'm working on the leftwing now.Clif I like it Cliff! I had originally thought of doing that on the rear part of the CS, but have it fixed...never thought of having it as part of the flop. I also had thought of using acyclic some places either on the sides or bottom of the fuselage...like windows...but decided against it. I would like to see it when complete. Michael Perez Pietenpol HINT Videos Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________________________________________________________